Announcement

Collapse

Firehouse.com Forum Rules & Guidelines

Forum Rules & Guidelines

Not Permitted or Tolerated:
• Advertising and/or links of commercial, for-profit websites, products, and/or services is not permitted. If you have a need to advertise on Firehouse.com please contact sales@firehouse.com
• Fighting/arguing
• Cyber-bullying
• Swearing
• Name-calling and/or personal attacks
• Spamming
• Typing in all CAPS
• “l33t speak” - Substituting characters for letters in an effort to represent a word or phrase. (example: M*****ive)
• Distribution of another person’s personal information, regardless of whether or not said information is public knowledge and whether or not an individual has permission to post said personal information
• Piracy advocation of any kind
• Racist, sexual, hate type defamatory, religious, political, or sexual commentary.
• Multiple forum accounts

Forum Posting Guidelines:

Posts must be on-topic, non-disruptive and relevant to the firefighting community. Post only in a mature and responsible way that contributes to the discussion at hand. Posting relevant information, helpful suggestions and/or constructive criticism is a great way to contribute to the community.

Post in the correct forum and have clear titles for your threads.

Please post in English or provide a translation.

There are moderators and admins who handle these forums with care, do not resort to self-help, instead please utilize the reporting option. Be mature and responsible for yourself and your posts. If you are offended by another member utilize the reporting option. All reported posts will be addressed and dealt with as deemed appropriate by Firehouse.com staff.

Firehouse.com Moderation Process:
Effective immediately, the following moderation process will take effect. User(s) whose posts are determined by Firehouse.com staff to be in violation of any of the rules above will EARN the following reprimand(s) in the moderation process:
1. An initial warning will be issued.
2. A Final Warning will be issued if a user is found to be in violation a second time.
3. A 3-day suspension will be issued if the user continues to break the forum rules.
4. A 45-day suspension will be issued if the user is found to be a habitual rule breaker.
5. Habitual rule breakers that have exhausted all of the above will receive a permanent life-time ban that will be strictly enforced. Reinstatement will not be allowed – there is no appeal process.

Subsequent accounts created in an effort to side-step the rules and moderation process are subject to automatic removal without notice. Firehouse.com reserves the right to expedite the reprimand process for any users as it is deemed necessary. Any user in the moderation process may be required to review and agree to by email the terms and conditions listed above before their account is re-instated (except for those that are banned).

Firehouse.com reserves the right to edit and/or remove any post or member, at any time, for any reason without notice. Firehouse.com also reserves the right to warn, suspend, and/or ban, any member, at any time, for any reason.

Firehouse.com values the active participation we have in our forums. Please ensure your posts are tasteful and tactful. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
See more
See less

Help creating new Operating Guidelines

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Help creating new Operating Guidelines

    Does anyone have any SOG or Guidelines their department uses for clearing houses and businesses on public assistant, medical calls, etc

    We are looking to write new guidelines about entering homes or businesses on emergency calls and making sure there is no threat to responder's going in. Basically when entering a home or business, making sure on the way to the patient or scene, that you are looking in all rooms for any threat, keeping an eye on people in that home or business for a possible threat, scanning for weapons such as guns, knives, etc and overall making sure the scene is secure when going on calls and basically slowing down and not rushing into a possible hostile environment and not knowing.

    All to often we see firefighters, emt's, police, etc going right into a home or business with tunnel vision and heading right to the patient or where someone tells them a patient may be, but in this day in age we need to be more focused on scene security.

    This type of SOG or Guideline may not exist yet and if not we will write it s we go, but hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

    Thanks!!

  • #2
    Look into EMS, it seems in EMS nothing is more important than scene security. I understand the though and sentiment but just making personnel be more proactive at situational awareness seems like a better course of action than a policy that could unnecessarily delay treatment of Grandma because we don't want to assume any risk.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's nothing that has to be specific and set in stone, but times are different now than 10, 20, 30 years ago. People now call 911 just to harm responders when before that was something never thought of.

      Basically if it's in writting, people take to it better than just being told once or twice..

      Your not doing grandma any good if you arrive on scene and rush to the back of the house and missed the ****ed off grandson with a knife in the first room that wants to hurt you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well seems like might depend on how many show up on the scene?

        How long you want to take, to make sure the scene is safe

        What do you do if you find the grandson with the knife?

        Sounds like you can write this, and would be with what your dept has to work with.

        Comment


        • #5
          There is some stuff on the internet


          https://www.nasemso.org/Meetings/Ann...dents-2014.pdf

          http://results.dogpile.com/serp?q=em...-BeOUNA&btnDP=

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fire228 View Post
            It's nothing that has to be specific and set in stone, but times are different now than 10, 20, 30 years ago. People now call 911 just to harm responders when before that was something never thought of.

            Basically if it's in writting, people take to it better than just being told once or twice..

            Your not doing grandma any good if you arrive on scene and rush to the back of the house and missed the ****ed off grandson with a knife in the first room that wants to hurt you.
            If it's not specific or set in stone how does it help? It would not be much of a guideline. You can't write a policy for everything.

            Situational awareness is likely the best and most realistic tactic you can come up with.

            As stated above, the real policy needs to address what happens when a threat is actually encountered.

            Comment


            • #7
              Situational awareness, keeping your head on a swivel, and paying attention to your "Spidey senses."

              Most of all - tying them all together and understanding that it's a team effort.

              I know of a young EMT that would probably be alive today if he'd listened to the rest of his crew, who were advising him it was time to get out.

              That incident led to a good many calls these days having law enforcement in before EMS. EMS stages until advised to respond.
              Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

              Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

              Comment


              • #8
                wait a second..... so grandma is having chest pains, in the upstairs bedoorm, so you want your crews to check every room for weapons? Ditto a commercial structure... you are realistically going to check every room for weapons or potential bad guys?

                I live in the south.... there is a good chance I can walk into a home, or a business, and half the people can have firearms on them. On a scene, someone once asked my Lt if he had his gun on him... his response: "I'm wearing pants, aren't I?" Your telling me if a knife is present, you are going to back out? better not get dispatched to a call in a kitchen..... There might be weapons present, but unless they are being used in a threatening manner, I would take a note of them and move on (otherwise every cop is a threat, and we both know that is just foolish).

                Lets be real for a second.... if you are going to get ambushed, either hurt or killed, but someone who wants to harm you, it's going to happen, and there is very little that can be done to "prevent" it from happening. Look at the Long Beach Firefighter who was killed while checking out a fire alarm in a retirement home. Look at the cops that were ambushed and killed in Canonsburg PA in 2016, Urbandale Iowa in 2016, Dallas Tx, and Charlotte NC..... these are trained and armed officers, and there weren't able to prevent their death by the hands of their assailants. And that doesn't include the 4 FFs that were shot in Webster NY in 2012. So if someone is going to cause an unprovoked attack on they, they are going to do it, and they are likely to cause injury, and no among of preparation can prevent it from happening.

                That all being said, there are some things that can help... maintain situational awareness; 3 person crews are the minimum, where the officer's primary job is to constantly survey the scene for potential threats, allowing the other two crew members to treat the patient, and if anyone's spidey senses go off, we all bounce, regardless of the patient condition; and the more public safety personnel in a scene the better, as a bad guy might think the two person EMS crew is a soft target, and worth attacking, but you add a 3 person firefighter crew and maybe a cop, that soft target get a lot harder.

                This also means we should end the practice of sending a single flycar medic to the scene before the ambulance or having the chief pull up first and go into a house, because he or she might end up walking into a really bad scene and have no backup there with him.
                If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                FF/EMT/DBP

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wear body armor helps with most of the body.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We always roll with PD, Having said that we are armed almost as well as them..... almost
                    Get the first line into operation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by fire5555 View Post
                      Wear body armor helps with most of the body.
                      Huh? Most "body armor" is just front/rear torso protection. While that's the largest part to aim at and holds the majority of critical organs, it's not most of the body. Not to mention most issued body armor won't stop a rifle round.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                        We always roll with PD, Having said that we are armed almost as well as them..... almost
                        You show up at the scene and approach the house. Someone starts shooting. How does being armed help? If you're hit you're hit, the weapon won't help.
                        Are you trained in police tactics?
                        Is your partner?
                        Have you trained together?
                        Do you have reliable and effective communication with PD?
                        Have you cross-trained with PD in this area?
                        Do you think you have a better chance of resolving the situation than the police do?
                        Do you fully understand the laws concerning deadly force?
                        Will you be backed by your supervisors, your department and your municipality?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It would not help, but I fail to see where a responsible Dept who's members have qualified the same as leo and has support of Chief is a bad thing. This is concealed not open

                          Alright I'll ask you a question if someone shows up and starts blowing away kids at school and your people have the ability to carry LEGALLY. After pd goes in are you going to push the curve and try to save some that may be savable with immediate intervention or are you going to be blocks away behind the fire truck for 30 minutes like happens most of the time.
                          Not in this town.
                          Get the first line into operation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                            It would not help, but I fail to see where a responsible Dept who's members have qualified the same as leo and has support of Chief is a bad thing. This is concealed not open

                            Alright I'll ask you a question if someone shows up and starts blowing away kids at school and your people have the ability to carry LEGALLY. After pd goes in are you going to push the curve and try to save some that may be savable with immediate intervention or are you going to be blocks away behind the fire truck for 30 minutes like happens most of the time.
                            Not in this town.
                            One of my my concerns on the general carrying situation is a mistaken identity case. Is it possible a cop could show up and shoot another first responder. Here's a clue. The answer is yes. Even in uniform a first responder could be mistaken for the bad guy. And how good is the uniform wearing going? People can get sloppy with that. Cops are not perfect. They get all amped up in these situations. It has happened before. In my town a cop from one jurisdiction shot a cop from another jurisdiction. This happened after the scene was controlled.
                            Another concern is the lack of cross training and effective inter agency communication. Problems are obvious in this area.

                            The school shooter scenario is very difficult. If you enter a hot zone prior to police control of the situation you become a target. You don't save any children if you get shot. You actually add to the problem by adding to the rescue requirements. If you go in armed how do you know you won't shoot a cop. Plainclothes cop. Off duty cop looking to help. Etc. How do you know a cop won't shoot you?

                            Our plan is that cops go in first and clear the scene area by area. We then enter each area with PD in a tactical group. But this will take time and coordination. There is no perfect plan for this stuff. We have to accept that fact of life. People will die. Because they were shot. Before we got there.

                            Having a bunch of guys acting individually regardless of their good intent is a bad idea. It will not go well all the time. And when it goes bad it will go real bad real fast.

                            I acknowledge that some of you have a long wait for a sufficient PD response. I don't know how I would handle it. Is cautious aggression a thing?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One last thing. Legally owning and carrying a gun is a long way off from being ready and able to operate successfully in a situation like this. The guys who do it professionally will tell you that assuming they've ever faced it themselves.

                              Comment

                              300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                              Collapse

                              300x600 Forums Only

                              Collapse

                              Taboola

                              Collapse

                              Upper 300x250

                              Collapse

                              Lower 970x90

                              Collapse

                              Lower 728x90

                              Collapse

                              Lower 300x50

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X