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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • Originally posted by johnsb View Post

    NOWHERE did I say I was filling 2500' of hose from a 1,000 gallon engine. Evidently you missed the part about automatic response of several tankers... Nor do we have to drop a dump tank, guess you've not heard of using a tanker as a nurse tank....Having the station staffed has nothing to do with it, we're talking about on the scene.
    See, you just keep attacking...
    Can the relay be set up? Yes. Quickly enough to make the difference on a single family dwelling? Not a chance. Especially if you are counting on mutual aid to help get it done.

    Send the tender up the drive with the engine to buy time for you to set up the relay.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

      Can the relay be set up? Yes. Quickly enough to make the difference on a single family dwelling? Not a chance. Especially if you are counting on mutual aid to help get it done.

      Send the tender up the drive with the engine to buy time for you to set up the relay.
      Well when you have some "single family dwellings" that are 6-8000 sq ft., you have the time and need. If it were a doublewide prefab, yeah sure. And we have automatic aid coming (and a lot), not mutual aid. They may even beat us to some parts of our area.
      But again, it's going to depend on the individual structure, along with some other factors. This is NOT a be all, end all, and may only apply to a few dozen structures. But it's in the tool box if we need it

      Comment


      • No where did I say NOT to do the relay. You seem to be unable to comprehend that. What I have said is sending the tender up WITH the attack engine buys you time to establish the relay if you deem it necessary. Honestly if you can't knock down a house fire with 4000 gallons of water all you are doing is delaying the inevitable.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
          No where did I say NOT to do the relay. You seem to be unable to comprehend that. What I have said is sending the tender up WITH the attack engine buys you time to establish the relay if you deem it necessary. Honestly if you can't knock down a house fire with 4000 gallons of water all you are doing is delaying the inevitable.
          "You are trying too hard to sell your plan with a ludicrous time frame.".....

          Comment


          • I never said a relay wouldn't work. What I said was without that initial tender for fire attack by the time you got the relay set up it would be too late to matter.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • Originally posted by johnsb View Post

              "You are trying too hard to sell your plan with a ludicrous time frame.".....
              I'm confused as to what you mean by a "ludicrous time frame".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                I'm confused as to what you mean by a "ludicrous time frame".
                He's quoting me when I doubted his ability, using mutual aid, to set up a relay in 10 minutes. That relay included laying 2500 feet of 5 inch hose, setting engines up, dropping the folding tank and dumping a tender load of water. Even if ALL the apparatus was there at the same time I believe that 10 minutes is a heck of a reach for getting this done.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                  He's quoting me when I doubted his ability, using mutual aid, to set up a relay in 10 minutes. That relay included laying 2500 feet of 5 inch hose, setting engines up, dropping the folding tank and dumping a tender load of water. Even if ALL the apparatus was there at the same time I believe that 10 minutes is a heck of a reach for getting this done.
                  Thanks for the clarification.

                  Even if 10 minutes is accurate, how much time passes before the mutual aid gets there to even start the clock? This is the real problem and it ties in to the other thread on auto/mutual aid. It's all about the ticking of the clock in structural firefighting. Very few of us get what we need when we need it. Ideally we all could arrive on scene and immediately begin all aspects of firefighting, thereby truly protecting lives and property. Mounting an exterior attack to wash down the remains of a structure falls short of the real goal. Too many departments are playing catch up from the moment they arrive. They are given a task that is impossible to carry out when staffing and resources are considered. The public has very little clue of what they are asking.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                    Too many departments are playing catch up from the moment they arrive. They are given a task that is impossible to carry out when staffing and resources are considered.
                    Even the buildings themselves now conspire against us. Used to be you had 10-15 minutes from ignition until things started to get out of hand. These days, after 15 minutes the building may well already be on the ground despite our best efforts.

                    The industry response standard is less than eight minutes on scene. In a volunteer environment, it may well take three or four of those minutes for staff to arrive at the station and get trucks underway (on a good day). A house at the edge of one's first due may take 7-10 minutes to simply pull into the driveway, much less get a line deployed and flowing.

                    We are, indeed, behind - sometimes before we are even dispatched.

                    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                      Thanks for the clarification.

                      Even if 10 minutes is accurate, how much time passes before the mutual aid gets there to even start the clock? This is the real problem and it ties in to the other thread on auto/mutual aid. It's all about the ticking of the clock in structural firefighting. Very few of us get what we need when we need it. Ideally we all could arrive on scene and immediately begin all aspects of firefighting, thereby truly protecting lives and property. Mounting an exterior attack to wash down the remains of a structure falls short of the real goal. Too many departments are playing catch up from the moment they arrive. They are given a task that is impossible to carry out when staffing and resources are considered. The public has very little clue of what they are asking.
                      See, you missed it too. Our tankers are coming AUTOMATIC, not mutual aid. I've said all that. And the closest one is a full time dept. Three of our closest FD's are fulltime, and there are others not too far away either. We don't necessarily have to use dump tanks either, as 90% of the tankers around here are engine tankers, not just dump tankers, so we can use our tanker as a nurse tanker.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                        He's quoting me when I doubted his ability, using mutual aid, to set up a relay in 10 minutes. That relay included laying 2500 feet of 5 inch hose, setting engines up, dropping the folding tank and dumping a tender load of water. Even if ALL the apparatus was there at the same time I believe that 10 minutes is a heck of a reach for getting this done.
                        I've told you SEVERAL times it was AUTOMATIC, not mutual aid. We'd have several sources water showing up about the same time we did. And you're stuck in dump tank mode, there's other ways.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                          I've told you SEVERAL times it was AUTOMATIC, not mutual aid. We'd have several sources water showing up about the same time we did. And you're stuck in dump tank mode, there's other ways.
                          Golly you mean like running the first tender up the driveway to pump to the attack engine? Then using that tender in essence as a relay pumper with its tank refilled in case something happens to your relay?

                          Honest;ly never been a fan of pumping off tenders as a long term water supply. Too much time sitting on scene when they could be running for more water after they dumped. I'm not saying it can't work, just seems slower than dumping and running.


                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                            See, you missed it too. Our tankers are coming AUTOMATIC, not mutual aid. I've said all that. And the closest one is a full time dept. Three of our closest FD's are fulltime, and there are others not too far away either. We don't necessarily have to use dump tanks either, as 90% of the tankers around here are engine tankers, not just dump tankers, so we can use our tanker as a nurse tanker.
                            No. It is you who is missing it. Auto aid or mutual aid doesn't matter unless the appropriate response time frame is met. How do you define "close departments"? What percentage of your coverage area can be adequately addressed within an acceptable time frame (let's go with eight minutes to arrival)?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              Golly you mean like running the first tender up the driveway to pump to the attack engine? Then using that tender in essence as a relay pumper with its tank refilled in case something happens to your relay?

                              Honest;ly never been a fan of pumping off tenders as a long term water supply. Too much time sitting on scene when they could be running for more water after they dumped. I'm not saying it can't work, just seems slower than dumping and running.

                              The problem with nursing is while the supply lines are being disconnected from tanker 1 and reconnected to tanker 2, the pump operator must switch to his own tank (assuming he refilled it while he was being supplied) and then switch back to the supply line once it back in operation. is this especially complicated? No. But it does put a little more pressure and stress on the pump operator to perform the switch over correctly every time - especially if there are folks operating interior.

                              One solution to that issue that I introduced at one of my VFDs is to put a Siamese at the supply end of the line. As Tanker 1 pumps off to the Siamese, Tanker 2 connects to the other side and comes up to pressure. As soon as tanker 1 shuts down, the clapper for Tanker 1 closes and the clapper for Tanker 2 opens and the water supply is uninterrupted. Tanker 1 disconnects and when Tanker 3 pulls up, he connects to the Siamese and comes up to pressureand then when Tanker 2 runs out of water, Tanker 3 then supplies the line..

                              I agree that the time for the tankers to arrive on scene is an issue, even if they are coming from a fulltime department. Other calls, weather, traffic, or simply getting lost are all variables that can certainly mess up a well laid out plan. I think you almost have to commit a tanker with the attack engine at the top of the driveway and maybe even a second if there is room.
                              Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-13-2018, 05:20 PM.
                              Train to fight the fires you fight.

                              Comment


                              • Goes back to simple answer - "it depends...."
                                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                                Comment

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