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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • #76
    I would say that even with training, assuming 1000' off LDH per engine, it would take at least 15 minutes to get water flowing. And that's assuming no hiccups. By that time you have lost whatever is burning.

    And bringing a tanker up the driveway has it's problems as well.

    Long story short ..... Hope you can knock it down with the initial tank water or else it's going to be a long afternoon.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
      I would say that even with training, assuming 1000' off LDH per engine, it would take at least 15 minutes to get water flowing. And that's assuming no hiccups. By that time you have lost whatever is burning.

      And bringing a tanker up the driveway has it's problems as well.

      Long story short ..... Hope you can knock it down with the initial tank water or else it's going to be a long afternoon.
      Okay so what's the issue with chasing the engine up the driveway with a tender for a quick initial water supply?
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #78
        I have no issue with that, however, the danger is that it will get stuck up with no room to get out there and may block the way for the next tanker, if needed.

        That being said, I would probably run the tanker up there and work off that. To me, laying line would simply take too long, unless you have quite a few of these driveways and have a truck with 2,000' or more on it.
        Train to fight the fires you fight.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
          I have no issue with that, however, the danger is that it will get stuck up with no room to get out there and may block the way for the next tanker, if needed.

          That being said, I would probably run the tanker up there and work off that. To me, laying line would simply take too long, unless you have quite a few of these driveways and have a truck with 2,000' or more on it.
          Okay my plan was to run that first tender up the driveway to give the initial hit roughly 4000 gallons of water. While using that water set up the relay and pump into the tender using that as the "folding tank." That way if the relay ever shuts down due to lack of water there is always 3000 gallons in the tender to use if needed.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post



            Look do whatever you want. I don't care. We aren't on the same department or even in the same state. I eagerly await your next post a month from now telling me that by saying this I am somehow wrong too.

            Seriously, learn to relax and enjoy your marvelous life.
            If you don't care, why are you so contentious??
            My point has always been that there are a LOT of different situations that may call for different tactics. Two structures next to each other may have two totally different setups needed. The only thing I'm saying you're wrong about is saying one way won't ever work. The only tactic I'll say is wrong is using the same tactic for everything.

            BTW, I am enjoying my marvelous life, Just spent a weekend at the lake, did a lot of wining and dining. And other stuff.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
              I would say that even with training, assuming 1000' off LDH per engine, it would take at least 15 minutes to get water flowing. And that's assuming no hiccups. By that time you have lost whatever is burning.

              And bringing a tanker up the driveway has it's problems as well.

              Long story short ..... Hope you can knock it down with the initial tank water or else it's going to be a long afternoon.
              It should not take 15 minutes to get water flowing. Granted, there may be a twisty, narrow drive or bad weather that complicates things, but barring that, it should be possible to do in 10 or less. And with a good crew, you can greatly slow a fire with tank water and good use of water.

              Comment


              • #82
                Being in a rural volly dept, this was a good read. We have a lot of farms and long narrow driveways. Looks to me like either way would work in the proper scenario.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I will address the OP. Take it for what it's worth from a big city guy (which may be absolutely nothing).

                  No apparent exposure problem. (Brush maybe?)

                  Delay in arrival of additional help.

                  Timber frame structure.

                  Send that tender up the driveway with the engine. Try to get a quick knockdown right out of the gate. There likely isn't time to set up a relay considering the response times involved. It is likely an advanced fire on arrival anyway. Being aggressive won't cost much because if you fail to get it you are back to losing the structure anyway. Which might be what happens while the relay is being set up.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                    It should not take 15 minutes to get water flowing. Granted, there may be a twisty, narrow drive or bad weather that complicates things, but barring that, it should be possible to do in 10 or less. And with a good crew, you can greatly slow a fire with tank water and good use of water.
                    I think you are being optimistic.

                    The other question is how would you make the lay?

                    Having done this several times, there is never an easy way where engines don't get bogged down, you lay short or something else happens in the relay pump operation.

                    Quite honestly, i was probably being optimistic when I said 15 minutes.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                      If you don't care, why are you so contentious??
                      My point has always been that there are a LOT of different situations that may call for different tactics. Two structures next to each other may have two totally different setups needed. The only thing I'm saying you're wrong about is saying one way won't ever work. The only tactic I'll say is wrong is using the same tactic for everything.

                      BTW, I am enjoying my marvelous life, Just spent a weekend at the lake, did a lot of wining and dining. And other stuff.
                      Dude seriously. You came back here a MONTH after my last post to restart the argument and you call me contentious. Pot meet kettle.

                      I never said the relay wouldn't work, what i said was if you didn't account for a water supply while it was being set-up it wouldn't matter anyways.
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                        It should not take 15 minutes to get water flowing. Granted, there may be a twisty, narrow drive or bad weather that complicates things, but barring that, it should be possible to do in 10 or less. And with a good crew, you can greatly slow a fire with tank water and good use of water.
                        So the fire is right next to the fire station and you have all of the rigs staffed when the call comes in? Because unless your first rig up that 2500 foot driveway has 2500 feet of LDH on board you will no way get that hose laid in 10 minutes, get the fold a tank dropped, draft engine set up, and water dumped into the tank in 10 minutes, let alone fill 2500 feet of hose with water. You for sure are not filling that 2500 feet of hose with a 1000 gallon tank from an engine.

                        You are trying too hard to sell your plan with a ludicrous time frame.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          It all goes back to "it depends."

                          If I've got another engine coming in ahead of a tanker, I might just have that rig come up the driveway - virtually all of the engines around here are carrying 1000 gallons anyhow. If the first engine in laid in and came up short, the second (most also carry 1000 feet of 5" LDH) can continue/finish the lay. If a tanker comes in next, they can drop a tank at the end of the driveway (most tankers around here are carrying a 1500 gallon drop tank) and get it filled for the next due engine to draft from.

                          For us, the time killer will be distance - the next three stations coming in on an automatic dispatch are 6, 7, and 8 miles out from the center of our district. And that assumes they get out the door in a reasonable amount of time. So, assuming 4 minutes out the door, the closest rig might be ~12 minutes out.

                          Any of them (including our own tanker) might be delayed for lack of a driver, so you use the hand that's dealt you and do your best.
                          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                            Okay my plan was to run that first tender up the driveway to give the initial hit roughly 4000 gallons of water. While using that water set up the relay and pump into the tender using that as the "folding tank." That way if the relay ever shuts down due to lack of water there is always 3000 gallons in the tender to use if needed.
                            This^^^, I have always liked having a tender hooked to the engine and using that tender as a drop tank. Have done it many times.
                            Another advantage is if there is a malfunction with the attack engine the tender can just increase pressure and pump through the engine.
                            Get the first line into operation.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                              Another advantage is if there is a malfunction with the attack engine the tender can just increase pressure and pump through the engine.
                              That involves some assumptions.

                              First, that the tanker even has a pump. Not all around here do.

                              Second, that the pump on the tanker is sufficient for the needed flow. The PTO pump on our tanker is only 250 GPM.

                              We haven't done nurse operations around here in years. In situations such as we're discussing a portable tank would be dropped. Once the tanker is empty, it can leave and another can take it's place, if necessary. Unless the driveway has been plugged... Once the LDH is in place, the portable tank can be left in place as contingency/reserve.
                              Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                              Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                                That involves some assumptions.

                                First, that the tanker even has a pump. Not all around here do.

                                Second, that the pump on the tanker is sufficient for the needed flow. The PTO pump on our tanker is only 250 GPM.

                                We haven't done nurse operations around here in years. In situations such as we're discussing a portable tank would be dropped. Once the tanker is empty, it can leave and another can take it's place, if necessary. Unless the driveway has been plugged... Once the LDH is in place, the portable tank can be left in place as contingency/reserve.
                                Interesting, I have actually never seen a tanker without a pump. But I reckon that would cause some issues with my setup.
                                Pumper\tankers are really popular around here and in GA, Saw one the other day that was new that held 3000 gallons and had a 1500 gmp pump
                                Get the first line into operation.

                                Comment

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