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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    My point was and still is no matter how good you think you are at setting up a relay it takes time. More time in the rural where tenders, folding tanks and drafting are involved. Running an engine and a tender up there buys time. In all reality with 4000 gallons if you haven' put the fire out you lost the house anyways.

    Your 3550 foot lay sucked up around 4000 gallons of water just filling hose. Pretty costly in a tender ops fire.
    EVERYTHING is going to take some time, certain situations lend themselves to a particular method more than others, I don't know why you don't want to acknowledge that. The long lay was just an example, and a training exercise at that. And we've used 90-100,000 gallons on some fires involving larger structures. So in a case like that, 4,000 isn't much.

    Dude, it's just another tool in the tool box.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by johnsb View Post

      EVERYTHING is going to take some time, certain situations lend themselves to a particular method more than others, I don't know why you don't want to acknowledge that. The long lay was just an example, and a training exercise at that. And we've used 90-100,000 gallons on some fires involving larger structures. So in a case like that, 4,000 isn't much.

      Dude, it's just another tool in the tool box.
      I never said it wasn't, but you seem determined to prove me wrong for some reason.

      But let me ask you this. Can you lay out a 2500 foot relay and get water flowing faster than you can run a tender up the driver and have the attack engine nurse off from it? I am not saying that you shouldn't set up the relay if there water supply is still needed. What I am saying is that initial hit may extinguish the fire or buy time until you have more water.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
        But let me ask you this. Can you lay out a 2500 foot relay and get water flowing faster than you can run a tender up the driver and have the attack engine nurse off from it? I am not saying that you shouldn't set up the relay if there water supply is still needed. What I am saying is that initial hit may extinguish the fire or buy time until you have more water.
        I would opine that this is yet another "it depends" situation where your actions are going to be determined by the situation. The three thousand gallons between the engine and the tanker may be enough to deal with the situation in its entirety, with no need for any other apparatus.

        Or it may just be enough to make the fire mad, as they say. Presumably the first-in officer can make that call based on all the usual parameters (involvement, incoming apparatus, exposures, etc and so on).



        Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

        Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by tree68 View Post
          I would opine that this is yet another "it depends" situation where your actions are going to be determined by the situation. The three thousand gallons between the engine and the tanker may be enough to deal with the situation in its entirety, with no need for any other apparatus.

          Or it may just be enough to make the fire mad, as they say. Presumably the first-in officer can make that call based on all the usual parameters (involvement, incoming apparatus, exposures, etc and so on).


          Make the fire mad?

          I'm sorry but I have no idea what that means. If you put the water in the right place, at the right rate(GPM), in the right form (stright or fog), how does water make a fire mad?

          I have no idea how applying water to a burning structure can make the fire worse, unless you aren't close to hitting the fire.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

            Make the fire mad?
            Not having the resources to deal with the amount of involvement.

            The reference is to hitting a fellow, but not hard enough to knock him out - all you do is make him mad.

            If I recall the formula correctly a half-involved 60 x 100 barn will need 1000 GPM for ten minutes (and that's for a single story). That 3000 gallons may buy you time, but it's not going to come close to putting the fire out. Even if that 1000 GPM is perfectly placed - while it lasts.

            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by tree68 View Post

              Not having the resources to deal with the amount of involvement.

              The reference is to hitting a fellow, but not hard enough to knock him out - all you do is make him mad.

              If I recall the formula correctly a half-involved 60 x 100 barn will need 1000 GPM for ten minutes (and that's for a single story). That 3000 gallons may buy you time, but it's not going to come close to putting the fire out. Even if that 1000 GPM is perfectly placed - while it lasts.
              Okay now you have changed the matrix of the original discussion. Originally we were talking about a house with a 2500 foot driveway. But since you have brought the barn fire into it. How about this, how long can you keep the house, or machine shed, or second barn from catching on fire with 1000 gallons of water versus 3,000 or 4,000 gallons of water while the relay is being set-up?


              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                Okay now you have changed the matrix of the original discussion. Originally we were talking about a house with a 2500 foot driveway. But since you have brought the barn fire into it. How about this, how long can you keep the house, or machine shed, or second barn from catching on fire with 1000 gallons of water versus 3,000 or 4,000 gallons of water while the relay is being set-up?

                For a while.

                My take on this discussion has been an either/or - either we lay line, or we don't.

                It really comes down to resources. If I have 2500 feet of LDH readily available, and the people and water to make it work, I'll likely still run that first tanker in with the engine, but I'm going to get the line down and working. If I don't have the resources, and there's room to turn tankers at the end, the hose may stay on the trucks.

                Actually, I may run that first tanker in, drop a port-a-pond, dump the tanker and get it back out of there. The pond will still provide a 1500 to 2000 gallon reserve.

                Like I said, it depends, no matter whether it's a house, or a barn, or any other building bigger than what that first 1000 gallons on the engine will handle.
                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by tree68 View Post

                  For a while.

                  My take on this discussion has been an either/or - either we lay line, or we don't.

                  It really comes down to resources. If I have 2500 feet of LDH readily available, and the people and water to make it work, I'll likely still run that first tanker in with the engine, but I'm going to get the line down and working. If I don't have the resources, and there's room to turn tankers at the end, the hose may stay on the trucks.

                  Actually, I may run that first tanker in, drop a port-a-pond, dump the tanker and get it back out of there. The pond will still provide a 1500 to 2000 gallon reserve.

                  Like I said, it depends, no matter whether it's a house, or a barn, or any other building bigger than what that first 1000 gallons on the engine will handle.

                  I never said not to lay the line, what I said was simply that a relay takes time to establish and 2500 feet of 5 inch hose would suck up the first 2500 gallons of water simply filling the hose with water. In my area that would mean either no water making it to the fire from the first tender dump or roughly 500 gallons making it from the first dump depending on the tender.

                  If the fire calls for more water than the one tender up the driveway can supply then it 100% makes sense to set-up a relay. I guess I would question your statement that you would have them dump and then leave. If there is room to maneuver then just do a tender shuttle. Also that tender driving back down the driveway would be in the way of any rig laying in for the relay. Like I said in an earlier post I would just have the supply engine pump to the tender at the scene, in essence using it as the dump tank and have the tender supply the attack engine. That way you have a reservoir at the fire in case the relay has problems.

                  There are a thousand ways to do something, some more efficient than others. Circumstances, staffing, and equipment can sometimes make the decisions before you do.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                    I would opine that this is yet another "it depends" situation where your actions are going to be determined by the situation. The three thousand gallons between the engine and the tanker may be enough to deal with the situation in its entirety, with no need for any other apparatus.

                    Or it may just be enough to make the fire mad, as they say. Presumably the first-in officer can make that call based on all the usual parameters (involvement, incoming apparatus, exposures, etc and so on).


                    Exactly. We also run foam in both of our engines, so we have extra capability with that. If it's just one structure like a house, it may be better to put all your water at the fire. But if it's a large structure or a group of structures that may require multiple streams, it may be better to deck gun it with the first engine and then get the relay established.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                      I never said it wasn't, but you seem determined to prove me wrong for some reason.

                      But let me ask you this. Can you lay out a 2500 foot relay and get water flowing faster than you can run a tender up the driver and have the attack engine nurse off from it? I am not saying that you shouldn't set up the relay if there water supply is still needed. What I am saying is that initial hit may extinguish the fire or buy time until you have more water.
                      If we had to, and the conditions were right, we could do a 2500 foot relay with the hose we have on the first two engines. We would have to have 300' of that as dual 3" lines, but that wouldn't be hard to do. But like I said, it depends on the situation. Conditions could change just due to time of day.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                        If we had to, and the conditions were right, we could do a 2500 foot relay with the hose we have on the first two engines. We would have to have 300' of that as dual 3" lines, but that wouldn't be hard to do. But like I said, it depends on the situation. Conditions could change just due to time of day.
                        Dude do whatever you want. Frankly it has zero impact on me.

                        If my on scene water isn't enough to attack and control the fire I am going to go to exposure protection FIRST and as more water becomes available then attack the fire.

                        Obviously potential victims change that plan.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                          Dude do whatever you want. Frankly it has zero impact on me.

                          If my on scene water isn't enough to attack and control the fire I am going to go to exposure protection FIRST and as more water becomes available then attack the fire.

                          Obviously potential victims change that plan.
                          I really don't know why you want to be so argumentative with me. I'm saying the same thing everybody else is, there are a BUNCH of options. I guess you just don't like it when I say it...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                            I really don't know why you want to be so argumentative with me. I'm saying the same thing everybody else is, there are a BUNCH of options. I guess you just don't like it when I say it...
                            It's funny, in a sad pathetic kind of way, that you are accusing me of being argumentative. Until your latest posts my last comment was June 11, over a month and a half ago. You can't seem to let it go. I have said multiple times there are different options, yet you still want to battle.

                            You want to run one engine up the driveway laying LDH, with how many other rigs leaded to finish the layout. I would run a tender up with the engine to give me 4000 gallons of water and then do a relay if it was still needed.

                            Are you done now or will you battle on?
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              It's funny, in a sad pathetic kind of way, that you are accusing me of being argumentative. Until your latest posts my last comment was June 11, over a month and a half ago. You can't seem to let it go. I have said multiple times there are different options, yet you still want to battle.

                              You want to run one engine up the driveway laying LDH, with how many other rigs leaded to finish the layout. I would run a tender up with the engine to give me 4000 gallons of water and then do a relay if it was still needed.

                              Are you done now or will you battle on?
                              I see you're still misquoting me. I said it DEPENDS on the situation. I may do either. But again, you start off with attacking me, then wonder why I defend myself...
                              Oh BTW, I don't rush back here just to reply to you, I have a life.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                                I see you're still misquoting me. I said it DEPENDS on the situation. I may do either. But again, you start off with attacking me, then wonder why I defend myself...
                                Oh BTW, I don't rush back here just to reply to you, I have a life.


                                Look do whatever you want. I don't care. We aren't on the same department or even in the same state. I eagerly await your next post a month from now telling me that by saying this I am somehow wrong too.

                                Seriously, learn to relax and enjoy your marvelous life.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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