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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by johnsb View Post

    EVERYTHING is going to take "too long" to do on a house like this. But you CAN lay 2500' of 5" relatively quickly with the right resources and practice. Nowhere did I say you should do this every fire, because every fire is going to be different. Our dept. can bring 6500 gallons with just our trucks, and there is going to be another 4-5000 more on it's way on automatic aid. So laying a long supply line IS an option for us. On some drives it's the ONLY option, because you can't turn a truck around at the end of the drives. We have some pretty big houses around here, not to mention out buildings.
    We disagree. That's okay.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #47
      We have a lot of places like this in our area. Mostly, if not all rural area. If I was in charge, I would send the first in engine to the house and put a water supply officer at the end of the driveway. That person keeps track of how many tenders are at the house and coordinates when to send a tender up. I would assume two tenders cannot meet each other in this driveway so tenders would announce they are coming out and this person holds the tenders going in until the empty ones come out.
      Jason Knecht
      Firefighter/EMT
      Township Fire Dept., Inc.
      Eau Claire, WI

      IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
      http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
      EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Dickey View Post
        We have a lot of places like this in our area. Mostly, if not all rural area. If I was in charge, I would send the first in engine to the house and put a water supply officer at the end of the driveway. That person keeps track of how many tenders are at the house and coordinates when to send a tender up. I would assume two tenders cannot meet each other in this driveway so tenders would announce they are coming out and this person holds the tenders going in until the empty ones come out.
        So would you have your tenders back down a 2000ft driveway ?


        This is not an issue on farm properties where you have an actual road with possibly a loop at the end. The problem is with 'driveways' that may allow you to turn around the initial attack engine at the end of the day, but don't offer enough room for tankers to go in and out.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

          So would you have your tenders back down a 2000ft driveway ?


          This is not an issue on farm properties where you have an actual road with possibly a loop at the end. The problem is with 'driveways' that may allow you to turn around the initial attack engine at the end of the day, but don't offer enough room for tankers to go in and out.
          For a single family dwelling if you need more than 3000 gallons you are burning the damn thing down. Slowly perhaps, but you aren't winning.

          Lay out your 2500 foot hose lay, but not until you run a tanker or 2 up the driveway to nurse the attack engine. Odds are they will put out the fire with that water or essentially lose the house before the relay is set up.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Too_Old View Post
            The problem is with 'driveways' ...
            Folks here like to make their driveways nice and curvy, too. A branch laid back one of the mirrors on our pumper not long ago driving down just such a driveway.

            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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            • #51
              This sort of scenario is a normal problem for us here in the Pa. Wilds. In the 1970's we switched to 6" rear suctions with a 6 x two 2 1/2" gated Siamese intake on the rear of our engines. (keeps everything in a single lane) For short driveways (less than 1,000 ft.) we drop at the main road and lay in. It takes a couple of firefighters from the second engine to walk in the driveway and move the 5" off the travel portion, so our tanker can back into the rear of the attack engine. For longer lays, you will need a marker to determine where you will start to lay-in. The second engine then backs in the drive and completes the lay out to the main road. The tanker (tender) backs in the cleared drive and makes a connection to the rear of the attack engine with two - 10ft. sections of 3" hard suction into the Siamese. First due tanker is now committed to acting as a nurse / drop tank for the rest of the operation. Second engine sets up a drop tank and relays to the attack engine. Mutual aid provides additional tankers as needed to supply the shuttle. We have selected sources where the 3rd engine is assigned to the fill site. Pre-fire planning uses an 11 ft. stick to check drive width and branch height for pumper and tanker clearances. Most "camps" do not have city water and depend upon a spring or well for water. They also frequently are "winterized" after hunting season, so there would be no water available to fill or maintain a supply of firefighting water. Interesting comments on sprinkler code / occupancy permits... Latest codes require sprinklers beneath engineered trusses. Local water company has now decided that any dwellings that install sprinklers must pay a $ 200.00 per year fee for the connection. Result is no sprinklers and 1 hour fire rated gypsum board under the joists. Effectively blocking the sprinkler advantage for the FD.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                We disagree. That's okay.
                Uh, some addresses in our district, it's NOT a choice. Lay a line or bring some brats...
                BTW, I don't know how you "disagree" with a viable option. You may not be able to, or need to use this tactic. but it's validity is obvious.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by kuh shise View Post
                  This sort of scenario is a normal problem for us here in the Pa. Wilds. In the 1970's we switched to 6" rear suctions with a 6 x two 2 1/2" gated Siamese intake on the rear of our engines. (keeps everything in a single lane) For short driveways (less than 1,000 ft.) we drop at the main road and lay in. It takes a couple of firefighters from the second engine to walk in the driveway and move the 5" off the travel portion, so our tanker can back into the rear of the attack engine. For longer lays, you will need a marker to determine where you will start to lay-in. The second engine then backs in the drive and completes the lay out to the main road. The tanker (tender) backs in the cleared drive and makes a connection to the rear of the attack engine with two - 10ft. sections of 3" hard suction into the Siamese. First due tanker is now committed to acting as a nurse / drop tank for the rest of the operation. Second engine sets up a drop tank and relays to the attack engine. Mutual aid provides additional tankers as needed to supply the shuttle. We have selected sources where the 3rd engine is assigned to the fill site. Pre-fire planning uses an 11 ft. stick to check drive width and branch height for pumper and tanker clearances. Most "camps" do not have city water and depend upon a spring or well for water. They also frequently are "winterized" after hunting season, so there would be no water available to fill or maintain a supply of firefighting water. Interesting comments on sprinkler code / occupancy permits... Latest codes require sprinklers beneath engineered trusses. Local water company has now decided that any dwellings that install sprinklers must pay a $ 200.00 per year fee for the connection. Result is no sprinklers and 1 hour fire rated gypsum board under the joists. Effectively blocking the sprinkler advantage for the FD.
                  I like how these idiot water companies are worried about some using a few hundred gallons of water for free, when the alternative is using tens of thousands for free...
                  SMH.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                    Uh, some addresses in our district, it's NOT a choice. Lay a line or bring some brats...
                    BTW, I don't know how you "disagree" with a viable option. You may not be able to, or need to use this tactic. but it's validity is obvious.
                    I should have known you couldn't just let it lie.

                    Okay, just so I am clear on what you are saying. There is room to drive a full sized engine up there but not room to bring a tender up to nurse from while your relay is being set-up, right? How log does it take to gather the resources to set up this 2500 foot relay and how many engines must pump it?

                    My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay, (you can't help but be insulting when ever someone disagrees with you) because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post


                      My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay,............. because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.
                      That is doing exactly what our preplan is. Use the engine and the tender to lay the relay out while both are on the way in to the fire. It is up to mutual aid to get the fill site, dump site, and start the relay. Meanwhile, we have 3,000 gallons at the fire. The whole key is to plan. That way you know where to start laying hose with each apparatus.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                        I should have known you couldn't just let it lie.

                        Okay, just so I am clear on what you are saying. There is room to drive a full sized engine up there but not room to bring a tender up to nurse from while your relay is being set-up, right? How log does it take to gather the resources to set up this 2500 foot relay and how many engines must pump it?

                        My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay, (you can't help but be insulting when ever someone disagrees with you) because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.
                        I like how you post a sarcastic remark and then complain that I "can't just let it lie", and that I "can't help but be insulting".
                        You are a consummate hypocrite.
                        Now back to the topic. We can run our engine tanker in with 1,100' of 5" and 2,500 gallons of water if we think we need to. We also have other tankers en route on automatic aid, and can call for more on the way based on our knowledge of the structure or from reports from dispatch.
                        I'm WELL aware of what happens when you run out of water. (Yeah, that's you being condescending, you know I've been on the job for quite awhile) The critical factor is HOW LONG will you be without water. If you can dump your tank and reset the fire, it buys you time. That works on multiple levels of fire.
                        And as I've said before, I've pumped through 3,550' of 5" with a 700 gpm output, with NO engines relaying.
                        It all depends on the particular incident, which was clearly my point all along. No where did I ever say any one tactic is what everyone should use for every fire on a long drive. There's probably half a dozen ways to do it, and whatever works for you in a particular situation is what you should use.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                          I like how you post a sarcastic remark and then complain that I "can't just let it lie", and that I "can't help but be insulting".
                          You are a consummate hypocrite.
                          Now back to the topic. We can run our engine tanker in with 1,100' of 5" and 2,500 gallons of water if we think we need to. We also have other tankers en route on automatic aid, and can call for more on the way based on our knowledge of the structure or from reports from dispatch.
                          I'm WELL aware of what happens when you run out of water. (Yeah, that's you being condescending, you know I've been on the job for quite awhile) The critical factor is HOW LONG will you be without water. If you can dump your tank and reset the fire, it buys you time. That works on multiple levels of fire.
                          And as I've said before, I've pumped through 3,550' of 5" with a 700 gpm output, with NO engines relaying.
                          It all depends on the particular incident, which was clearly my point all along. No where did I ever say any one tactic is what everyone should use for every fire on a long drive. There's probably half a dozen ways to do it, and whatever works for you in a particular situation is what you should use.
                          My point was and still is no matter how good you think you are at setting up a relay it takes time. More time in the rural where tenders, folding tanks and drafting are involved. Running an engine and a tender up there buys time. In all reality with 4000 gallons if you haven' put the fire out you lost the house anyways.

                          Your 3550 foot lay sucked up around 4000 gallons of water just filling hose. Pretty costly in a tender ops fire.
                          Last edited by FyredUp; 06-02-2018, 03:45 PM.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Last time we had something like that, the tanker driver didn't know if he'd have room to turn around at the scene, so he backed the entire 1000 feet up the driveway...

                            He had room.

                            Then the MA engine assigned to pump the LDH couldn't get a prime. More delay.

                            The place was shot when we got there. It was more about dousing the remains and protecting several exposure, anyhow.

                            The bottom line is "it depends."
                            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                              Last time we had something like that, the tanker driver didn't know if he'd have room to turn around at the scene, so he backed the entire 1000 feet up the driveway...

                              He had room.

                              Then the MA engine assigned to pump the LDH couldn't get a prime. More delay.

                              The place was shot when we got there. It was more about dousing the remains and protecting several exposure, anyhow.

                              The bottom line is "it depends."
                              I guess in my example I don't care if the tender that follows up the driveway can get out or not. Heck the option of using the tender as the portable tank and having it pump to the attack engine allows there to almost always be whatever the size of the tender is available immediately on the fireground even if the relay falls apart at some point.
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                                So would you have your tenders back down a 2000ft driveway ?

                                I would have them back up if it's not a turn around. We also have two 3000 gal tenders, (the other 4 tenders are 1800 gal) and all engines carry 1000 gal as well. The first in tender would most likely go to the engine and supply it while a relay pump operation is set up at the end of the driveway. Done this many times.
                                www.townshipfire.org
                                Jason Knecht
                                Firefighter/EMT
                                Township Fire Dept., Inc.
                                Eau Claire, WI

                                IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
                                http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
                                EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

                                Comment

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