Originally posted by johnsb
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long driveway lay or shuttle?
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We have a lot of places like this in our area. Mostly, if not all rural area. If I was in charge, I would send the first in engine to the house and put a water supply officer at the end of the driveway. That person keeps track of how many tenders are at the house and coordinates when to send a tender up. I would assume two tenders cannot meet each other in this driveway so tenders would announce they are coming out and this person holds the tenders going in until the empty ones come out.Jason Knecht
Firefighter/EMT
Township Fire Dept., Inc.
Eau Claire, WI
IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!
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Originally posted by Dickey View PostWe have a lot of places like this in our area. Mostly, if not all rural area. If I was in charge, I would send the first in engine to the house and put a water supply officer at the end of the driveway. That person keeps track of how many tenders are at the house and coordinates when to send a tender up. I would assume two tenders cannot meet each other in this driveway so tenders would announce they are coming out and this person holds the tenders going in until the empty ones come out.
This is not an issue on farm properties where you have an actual road with possibly a loop at the end. The problem is with 'driveways' that may allow you to turn around the initial attack engine at the end of the day, but don't offer enough room for tankers to go in and out.
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Originally posted by Too_Old View Post
So would you have your tenders back down a 2000ft driveway ?
This is not an issue on farm properties where you have an actual road with possibly a loop at the end. The problem is with 'driveways' that may allow you to turn around the initial attack engine at the end of the day, but don't offer enough room for tankers to go in and out.
Lay out your 2500 foot hose lay, but not until you run a tanker or 2 up the driveway to nurse the attack engine. Odds are they will put out the fire with that water or essentially lose the house before the relay is set up.Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate
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Originally posted by Too_Old View PostThe problem is with 'driveways' ...
Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.
Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.
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This sort of scenario is a normal problem for us here in the Pa. Wilds. In the 1970's we switched to 6" rear suctions with a 6 x two 2 1/2" gated Siamese intake on the rear of our engines. (keeps everything in a single lane) For short driveways (less than 1,000 ft.) we drop at the main road and lay in. It takes a couple of firefighters from the second engine to walk in the driveway and move the 5" off the travel portion, so our tanker can back into the rear of the attack engine. For longer lays, you will need a marker to determine where you will start to lay-in. The second engine then backs in the drive and completes the lay out to the main road. The tanker (tender) backs in the cleared drive and makes a connection to the rear of the attack engine with two - 10ft. sections of 3" hard suction into the Siamese. First due tanker is now committed to acting as a nurse / drop tank for the rest of the operation. Second engine sets up a drop tank and relays to the attack engine. Mutual aid provides additional tankers as needed to supply the shuttle. We have selected sources where the 3rd engine is assigned to the fill site. Pre-fire planning uses an 11 ft. stick to check drive width and branch height for pumper and tanker clearances. Most "camps" do not have city water and depend upon a spring or well for water. They also frequently are "winterized" after hunting season, so there would be no water available to fill or maintain a supply of firefighting water. Interesting comments on sprinkler code / occupancy permits... Latest codes require sprinklers beneath engineered trusses. Local water company has now decided that any dwellings that install sprinklers must pay a $ 200.00 per year fee for the connection. Result is no sprinklers and 1 hour fire rated gypsum board under the joists. Effectively blocking the sprinkler advantage for the FD.
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Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
We disagree. That's okay.
BTW, I don't know how you "disagree" with a viable option. You may not be able to, or need to use this tactic. but it's validity is obvious.
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Originally posted by kuh shise View PostThis sort of scenario is a normal problem for us here in the Pa. Wilds. In the 1970's we switched to 6" rear suctions with a 6 x two 2 1/2" gated Siamese intake on the rear of our engines. (keeps everything in a single lane) For short driveways (less than 1,000 ft.) we drop at the main road and lay in. It takes a couple of firefighters from the second engine to walk in the driveway and move the 5" off the travel portion, so our tanker can back into the rear of the attack engine. For longer lays, you will need a marker to determine where you will start to lay-in. The second engine then backs in the drive and completes the lay out to the main road. The tanker (tender) backs in the cleared drive and makes a connection to the rear of the attack engine with two - 10ft. sections of 3" hard suction into the Siamese. First due tanker is now committed to acting as a nurse / drop tank for the rest of the operation. Second engine sets up a drop tank and relays to the attack engine. Mutual aid provides additional tankers as needed to supply the shuttle. We have selected sources where the 3rd engine is assigned to the fill site. Pre-fire planning uses an 11 ft. stick to check drive width and branch height for pumper and tanker clearances. Most "camps" do not have city water and depend upon a spring or well for water. They also frequently are "winterized" after hunting season, so there would be no water available to fill or maintain a supply of firefighting water. Interesting comments on sprinkler code / occupancy permits... Latest codes require sprinklers beneath engineered trusses. Local water company has now decided that any dwellings that install sprinklers must pay a $ 200.00 per year fee for the connection. Result is no sprinklers and 1 hour fire rated gypsum board under the joists. Effectively blocking the sprinkler advantage for the FD.
SMH.
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Originally posted by johnsb View Post
Uh, some addresses in our district, it's NOT a choice. Lay a line or bring some brats...
BTW, I don't know how you "disagree" with a viable option. You may not be able to, or need to use this tactic. but it's validity is obvious.
Okay, just so I am clear on what you are saying. There is room to drive a full sized engine up there but not room to bring a tender up to nurse from while your relay is being set-up, right? How log does it take to gather the resources to set up this 2500 foot relay and how many engines must pump it?
My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay, (you can't help but be insulting when ever someone disagrees with you) because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate
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Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay,............. because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.
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Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
I should have known you couldn't just let it lie.
Okay, just so I am clear on what you are saying. There is room to drive a full sized engine up there but not room to bring a tender up to nurse from while your relay is being set-up, right? How log does it take to gather the resources to set up this 2500 foot relay and how many engines must pump it?
My point has nothing to do with whether my department can pull off operating a relay, (you can't help but be insulting when ever someone disagrees with you) because we can, and have, at actual incidents. My point has to do with the simple fact that unless all of your apparatus respond simultaneously, even a 1000 gallon water tank engine will be out of water before the relay is set-up. So what happens to the fire while you are waiting for water? Yep, it gets bigger. My point is even if you choose to do the relay it makes sense to run that first tender up right behind the attack engine for an additional water supply while the relay is being set. That water may be enough to actually extinguish the fire before the relay is even finished being set-up.
You are a consummate hypocrite.
Now back to the topic. We can run our engine tanker in with 1,100' of 5" and 2,500 gallons of water if we think we need to. We also have other tankers en route on automatic aid, and can call for more on the way based on our knowledge of the structure or from reports from dispatch.
I'm WELL aware of what happens when you run out of water. (Yeah, that's you being condescending, you know I've been on the job for quite awhile) The critical factor is HOW LONG will you be without water. If you can dump your tank and reset the fire, it buys you time. That works on multiple levels of fire.
And as I've said before, I've pumped through 3,550' of 5" with a 700 gpm output, with NO engines relaying.
It all depends on the particular incident, which was clearly my point all along. No where did I ever say any one tactic is what everyone should use for every fire on a long drive. There's probably half a dozen ways to do it, and whatever works for you in a particular situation is what you should use.
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Originally posted by johnsb View Post
I like how you post a sarcastic remark and then complain that I "can't just let it lie", and that I "can't help but be insulting".
You are a consummate hypocrite.
Now back to the topic. We can run our engine tanker in with 1,100' of 5" and 2,500 gallons of water if we think we need to. We also have other tankers en route on automatic aid, and can call for more on the way based on our knowledge of the structure or from reports from dispatch.
I'm WELL aware of what happens when you run out of water. (Yeah, that's you being condescending, you know I've been on the job for quite awhile) The critical factor is HOW LONG will you be without water. If you can dump your tank and reset the fire, it buys you time. That works on multiple levels of fire.
And as I've said before, I've pumped through 3,550' of 5" with a 700 gpm output, with NO engines relaying.
It all depends on the particular incident, which was clearly my point all along. No where did I ever say any one tactic is what everyone should use for every fire on a long drive. There's probably half a dozen ways to do it, and whatever works for you in a particular situation is what you should use.
Your 3550 foot lay sucked up around 4000 gallons of water just filling hose. Pretty costly in a tender ops fire.Last edited by FyredUp; 06-02-2018, 03:45 PM.Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate
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Last time we had something like that, the tanker driver didn't know if he'd have room to turn around at the scene, so he backed the entire 1000 feet up the driveway...
He had room.
Then the MA engine assigned to pump the LDH couldn't get a prime. More delay.
The place was shot when we got there. It was more about dousing the remains and protecting several exposure, anyhow.
The bottom line is "it depends."Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.
Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.
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Originally posted by tree68 View PostLast time we had something like that, the tanker driver didn't know if he'd have room to turn around at the scene, so he backed the entire 1000 feet up the driveway...
He had room.
Then the MA engine assigned to pump the LDH couldn't get a prime. More delay.
The place was shot when we got there. It was more about dousing the remains and protecting several exposure, anyhow.
The bottom line is "it depends."Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate
Comment
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Originally posted by Too_Old View Post
So would you have your tenders back down a 2000ft driveway ?
www.townshipfire.org
Jason Knecht
Firefighter/EMT
Township Fire Dept., Inc.
Eau Claire, WI
IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!
Comment
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