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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

    It's called 'property rights' and the opposite of the nanny state.

    If I build an apartment building that I plan to rent out to unsuspecting renters, I should be required to build it to the highest safety standard achievable. If I build a rural home for my own use, I should have a lot of leeway on how well I want to insulate the walls, what materials to use and yes, whether I want to put in sprinklers. Its that entire personal responsibility thing. Anyone buying such a home down the line should be assumed to be a sophisticated buyer who can fairly evaluate any risks associated with such a home.
    I am not at all opposed to code requirements on things like egress from sleeping quarters and safe installation of utilities like gas and electric. It's the code requirements that affect matters of taste and personal choice that get on my nerves.
    The issue is that almost no states differentiate between owners and renters in one and two family dwellings. An apartment building may or may not be required to meet a code in some places (as I noted is the case in my state where the community is <4000). As is all too often the case, homebuyers do not know codes, nor do realtors (and they only want to if they represent the buyer) and even home inspectors are not code experts. We routinely point out far more issues when we do conveyance inspections for apartment buildings.

    Sprinklers should be like the the NEC, too important to be left to choices. Of course here, in places over 4000 resident they also require insulation levels, and energy efficiency, along with Life Safety Codes and building codes.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

      It's called 'property rights' and the opposite of the nanny state.

      If I build an apartment building that I plan to rent out to unsuspecting renters, I should be required to build it to the highest safety standard achievable. If I build a rural home for my own use, I should have a lot of leeway on how well I want to insulate the walls, what materials to use and yes, whether I want to put in sprinklers. Its that entire personal responsibility thing. Anyone buying such a home down the line should be assumed to be a sophisticated buyer who can fairly evaluate any risks associated with such a home.
      I am not at all opposed to code requirements on things like egress from sleeping quarters and safe installation of utilities like gas and electric. It's the code requirements that affect matters of taste and personal choice that get on my nerves.
      No one knows when a house is built what it's future use will be. It could easily end up being rented. It could change ownership many times over it's lifespan. The codes are written for the building, not the builder/owner. Once the walls are enclosed it is impossible to see inside them. Due diligence won't be enough. The codes protect against what could be hiding behind those walls.

      The difference between reasonable code requirements and nanny state intrusion is a matter of personal acceptance levels. Why are egress requirements and utility requirements OK but sprinkler requirements are not?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by captnjak View Post

        The difference between reasonable code requirements and nanny state intrusion is a matter of personal acceptance levels. Why are egress requirements and utility requirements OK but sprinkler requirements are not?
        The funny part about people that claim property rights is no matter what kind of death trap pile of crap home they build they still expect firefighters to rescue them when a fire occurs. If the house is built shoddily or without proper egress points it makes our dangerous job even more dangerous. Imagine doing a search in that house I described in an earlier post. You find a victim in a windowless, bedroom and the only way out is the way you came in but the area between you and the door lights up. Now what? Property rights are a great idea until your rights infringe on the safety of others. Can the fire department deem your home too dangerous to enter and let it burn because you won't abide by recognized codes?
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tree68 View Post
          I know of a fire department that labelled one of the rooms in their new station as sleeping quarters, thus had to install sprinklers. And two 12,000 gallon tanks, and the aforementioned pumps and power. They keep the tanks topped off from their well, and the tanks are also set up as a static water source for fires in their district.

          Laying out 2,500 feet of LDH would generally require three engines around here (most carry 1,000 feet of LDH). Yes, it would require 2,500 gallons of water to fill, but once it was, you wouldn't need to relay. If I remember the charts correctly, you can go well over that 2,500 feet in a single lay of 5" and still move 1,000 GPM.

          We laid about 400 feet into a driveway last winter. There was no way to turn tankers, so they would have had to back that distance in to the drop tank. This was identified immediately, so the first-due engine laid in.

          My personal take on residential sprinklers? Stopping a fire in the incipient stage would mean only some repairs. If the house is damaged beyond repair (which happens within 10 minutes for most new construction), then the building industry gets to build a new house...
          My and I think firedup's point about how much water it takes to initially fill LDH is unless you have 3 or 4 thousand gallons immediately pumping into that hose lay ,little if any water reaches the attack engine and the clocks ticking. On the super long lays its a catch 22 on whether to drop LDH or 3" - the LDH eats up so much water initially and the 3" has so much friction loss its hard to get a decent flow. In a perfect world you could drop a 3 and a 5 -pump the small line until you had a good water shuttle going then switch ---but most of the time by then you have lost the structure.
          ?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post

            My and I think firedup's point about how much water it takes to initially fill LDH is unless you have 3 or 4 thousand gallons immediately pumping into that hose lay ,little if any water reaches the attack engine and the clocks ticking. On the super long lays its a catch 22 on whether to drop LDH or 3" - the LDH eats up so much water initially and the 3" has so much friction loss its hard to get a decent flow. In a perfect world you could drop a 3 and a 5 -pump the small line until you had a good water shuttle going then switch ---but most of the time by then you have lost the structure.
            I agree completely.
            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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            • #36
              Just lay booster line up the driveway as supply.... Easier to pick up and clean and you can "conserve" water while at it.
              Get the first line into operation.

              Comment


              • #37
                We have several of these residences and farms. We carry 2800' of 5" between our two apparatus and each of these long driveways has the point where the engine needs to start laying hose marked with a post to wrap around. The tanker starts at the beginning of the driveway, lays to where the engine started, makes the connection and continues in to set up as a nurse tanker until mutual aid has the 5" filled and flowing. It gives us 3,000 gallon on scene and the relay all set up for others to supply.

                Only one of the places like this is just a house. Most either have large (5000+ sqft) garages or pole buildings, or they have a full farm with barn and other outbuildings. A few even have ponds available, but our philosophy is that it is easier to lay the 5" and not use it rather than not be able to access the pond and try to lay the 5" later.

                As for sprinklers, most of our new construction is Amish. They do not have to abide by the building code provisions that relate to electricity or components requiring electricity as that violates their freedom of religion. The good part is that they do not subscribe to lightweight construction.

                Comment


                • #38
                  No matter what the department decides to do practicing it prior to the real event is crucial. That way bugs can be worked out ahead of time and the actual event will go smoother.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                    Just lay booster line up the driveway as supply.... Easier to pick up and clean and you can "conserve" water while at it.
                    You should become a consultant and sell that concept to fire chiefs. Maybe claim that if you just add some foam a 1in red line will do you just fine ;;-)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                      You should become a consultant and sell that concept to fire chiefs. Maybe claim that if you just add some foam a 1in red line will do you just fine ;;-)
                      That's a good idea... While I'm at it I'll tell them that due to the ease of deployment, clean up ect they can cut staffing as well
                      Get the first line into operation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by L-Webb View Post

                        That's a good idea... While I'm at it I'll tell them that due to the ease of deployment, clean up ect they can cut staffing as well

                        Using the electric hose-reel to pick up the line is so easy, even an intern could do it ;-)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Haha that's great
                          Get the first line into operation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Too_Old View Post


                            Using the electric hose-reel to pick up the line is so easy, even an intern could do it ;-)
                            ?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              Its a house fire...2500 foot hose lay is going to take too long to get laid out and too much water too fill the hose.
                              EVERYTHING is going to take "too long" to do on a house like this. But you CAN lay 2500' of 5" relatively quickly with the right resources and practice. Nowhere did I say you should do this every fire, because every fire is going to be different. Our dept. can bring 6500 gallons with just our trucks, and there is going to be another 4-5000 more on it's way on automatic aid. So laying a long supply line IS an option for us. On some drives it's the ONLY option, because you can't turn a truck around at the end of the drives. We have some pretty big houses around here, not to mention out buildings.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                                I know of a fire department that labelled one of the rooms in their new station as sleeping quarters, thus had to install sprinklers. And two 12,000 gallon tanks, and the aforementioned pumps and power. They keep the tanks topped off from their well, and the tanks are also set up as a static water source for fires in their district.

                                Laying out 2,500 feet of LDH would generally require three engines around here (most carry 1,000 feet of LDH). Yes, it would require 2,500 gallons of water to fill, but once it was, you wouldn't need to relay. If I remember the charts correctly, you can go well over that 2,500 feet in a single lay of 5" and still move 1,000 GPM.

                                We laid about 400 feet into a driveway last winter. There was no way to turn tankers, so they would have had to back that distance in to the drop tank. This was identified immediately, so the first-due engine laid in.

                                My personal take on residential sprinklers? Stopping a fire in the incipient stage would mean only some repairs. If the house is damaged beyond repair (which happens within 10 minutes for most new construction), then the building industry gets to build a new house...
                                I've pumped through 3550' of 5", with approx. 700 gpm's at the other end. (150 PDP). There was no elevation, and NO pumpers in between. So that IS an option. It all just depends on what the access is, and what equipment you have. You have to know your district and be flexible.

                                Comment

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