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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

    There are flush mounted sprinkler heads that can be made to pretty much disappear. It's just that the builders don't spec them due to additional cost.
    Right, you can make the unobtrusive but they don't provide status like having a lush golf course quality lawn out front.

    Most people seem not to give a fig about safety. I think the fire service has been going about his all wrong, we need to make sprinklers hip so everybody wants one. Get all those life style shows to show off the fire protection systems of the rich and famous to get some sprinkler envy going.

    The Kale people have managed to get people to eat their product, maybe we could involve them, as that seems like a harder sale then sprinklers.

    Comment


    • #17
      Another thing to consider is elevation. Is this a relatively flat driveway, or is there significant elevation or depression?? Have you actually talked to these people? Another option is an engine tanker if you have one. We have one fully equipped with a 2500 tank, all the preconnects, packs, foam, etc. that we can take directly to the house. Another option for laying hose is to have markers so that you know when to start dropping a supply line so that you can relay without having to fill in gaps because a supply line was dropped too early. Virtually everyone in our area carries 1,000' of 5" for that.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by johnsb View Post
        Another thing to consider is elevation. Is this a relatively flat driveway, or is there significant elevation or depression?? Have you actually talked to these people? Another option is an engine tanker if you have one. We have one fully equipped with a 2500 tank, all the preconnects, packs, foam, etc. that we can take directly to the house. Another option for laying hose is to have markers so that you know when to start dropping a supply line so that you can relay without having to fill in gaps because a supply line was dropped too early. Virtually everyone in our area carries 1,000' of 5" for that.
        Its a house fire...2500 foot hose lay is going to take too long to get laid out and too much water too fill the hose.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Here and there View Post
          Right, you can make the unobtrusive but they don't provide status like having a lush golf course quality lawn out front.

          Most people seem not to give a fig about safety. I think the fire service has been going about his all wrong, we need to make sprinklers hip so everybody wants one. Get all those life style shows to show off the fire protection systems of the rich and famous to get some sprinkler envy going.

          The Kale people have managed to get people to eat their product, maybe we could involve them, as that seems like a harder sale then sprinklers.
          The solution to get sprinklers into new construction is to require them via code. But then, we also have to recognize that in anyone building a home for their personal use (as opposed to a rental) should have the right to build it as they please, and that includes not installing sprinklers.

          For example there are some significant downsides to sprinklers in a seasonal home. Unless it is a 'dry' sprinkler system (and few residential systems are), there is no good way to winterize a place if you don't use it through the cold months.

          Also, for a home that is not on public water supply, you need to have not only a holding tank but also a backup power supply for the fire-pump. The minimal per square foot cost quoted by some of the sprinkler evangelists is for a 13R system on a public water supply. For a larger rural home that requires tank, firepump and a backup generator, the additional cost to sprinkler the place is considerable.

          Comment


          • #20
            "But then, we also have to recognize that in anyone building a home for their personal use (as opposed to a rental) should have the right to build it as they please, and that includes not installing sprinklers."

            Since when does anyone have the right to build a home as they please? Building codes intrude into almost every home-building decision.

            But overall a great post. Some of those things did not occur to me.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by captnjak View Post
              "But then, we also have to recognize that in anyone building a home for their personal use (as opposed to a rental) should have the right to build it as they please, and that includes not installing sprinklers."

              Since when does anyone have the right to build a home as they please? Building codes intrude into almost every home-building decision.

              But overall a great post. Some of those things did not occur to me.
              Not so fast captnjak...There are states with little or no building code requirements for single family dwellings. I used to belong to a site where people would show the homes they built in parts of Tennessee that would never pass muster here in Wisconsin due to building code issues and any time I mentioned a problem I was promptly told to take my northern attitude and place it in an area where the sun didn't shine.
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                Probably more economical to order in a 20,000gal underground holding tank. We have a couple of facilities and homes in our service area that have on-site tanks with a dry hydrant. While not recognized by ISO, I believe individual insurance companies credit availability of a source for suppression water.
                13D Sprinkler system would likely be cheapest option and clearly the best protection. One of my guys just built a house and with an in basement tank it was under $10k and that's high per square foot as our area seems to not have enough 13D systems going in for the industry to be competitive. Plus a sprinkler saves insurance money, fire ponds usually add significant insurance costs.
                Last edited by RFDACM02; 05-15-2018, 05:42 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                  The solution to get sprinklers into new construction is to require them via code. But then, we also have to recognize that in anyone building a home for their personal use (as opposed to a rental) should have the right to build it as they please, and that includes not installing sprinklers.
                  Think about seatbelts, we don't let car owners make that choice. Why should we with sprinklers? Do the kids get a say? How about the next owner? What about all of us in the insurance pool. Fewer losses overall mean cheaper rates for all. Then there's the "green" aspect. Sprinkler protect the environment. And in the long game, sprinklers can reduce the cost of growth by minimizing FD expansion into more rural areas (not as popular with the Unions). As noted, home fire sprinkler may be designed only for life safety, but their statistics at property protection are also phenomenal.
                  Originally posted by Too_Old View Post
                  For example there are some significant downsides to sprinklers in a seasonal home. Unless it is a 'dry' sprinkler system (and few residential systems are), there is no good way to winterize a place if you don't use it through the cold months.
                  Most places that require home fire sprinklers allow shutdowns for seasonal homes. As noted, their life safety systems, no life hazard, no need to be "on". And of course the likelihood of fire dramatically drops when the home is closed up.
                  Originally posted by Too_Old View Post
                  Also, for a home that is not on public water supply, you need to have not only a holding tank but also a backup power supply for the fire-pump. The minimal per square foot cost quoted by some of the sprinkler evangelists is for a 13R system on a public water supply. For a larger rural home that requires tank, fire pump and a backup generator, the additional cost to sprinkler the place is considerable.
                  NFPA 13D does allow the use of a water tank and pump as the supply, but the water is only needed for 10 minutes, so most tanks are 300 gallons or less with a standard well pump backfilling the tank. And they do not require a back-up power supply as the Code tries to be reasonable and the system is there for the major majority of probably fire, but of course not every eventuality.

                  I believe the rural system one of my guys just had installed in his new modular colonial style (increased cost as it had to be installed after-the-fact) was less than $2.50/sq.ft.
                  Last edited by RFDACM02; 05-15-2018, 05:41 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I know of a fire department that labelled one of the rooms in their new station as sleeping quarters, thus had to install sprinklers. And two 12,000 gallon tanks, and the aforementioned pumps and power. They keep the tanks topped off from their well, and the tanks are also set up as a static water source for fires in their district.

                    Laying out 2,500 feet of LDH would generally require three engines around here (most carry 1,000 feet of LDH). Yes, it would require 2,500 gallons of water to fill, but once it was, you wouldn't need to relay. If I remember the charts correctly, you can go well over that 2,500 feet in a single lay of 5" and still move 1,000 GPM.

                    We laid about 400 feet into a driveway last winter. There was no way to turn tankers, so they would have had to back that distance in to the drop tank. This was identified immediately, so the first-due engine laid in.

                    My personal take on residential sprinklers? Stopping a fire in the incipient stage would mean only some repairs. If the house is damaged beyond repair (which happens within 10 minutes for most new construction), then the building industry gets to build a new house...
                    Last edited by tree68; 05-15-2018, 09:34 PM.
                    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                      Not so fast captnjak...There are states with little or no building code requirements for single family dwellings. I used to belong to a site where people would show the homes they built in parts of Tennessee that would never pass muster here in Wisconsin due to building code issues and any time I mentioned a problem I was promptly told to take my northern attitude and place it in an area where the sun didn't shine.
                      I suspect those states are in the minority and will likely disappear altogether soon enough.

                      Do these people not insure their homes? how do they carry a mortgage on them? I can't imagine the insurance companies being happy providing coverage to any piece of crap an owner decides to build. And they are pretty powerful lobbyists.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                        I suspect those states are in the minority and will likely disappear altogether soon enough.

                        Do these people not insure their homes? how do they carry a mortgage on them? I can't imagine the insurance companies being happy providing coverage to any piece of crap an owner decides to build. And they are pretty powerful lobbyists.
                        One for example was built into the side of a hill. It had no secondary means of egress from the bedrooms and the guest bedroom had a gas water heater in it.

                        The only doors and windows were in the open face side of the building. So essentially if their was a fire that spread from the wood burner in their living room their was no escape from the bedrooms.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                          "But then, we also have to recognize that in anyone building a home for their personal use (as opposed to a rental) should have the right to build it as they please, and that includes not installing sprinklers."

                          Since when does anyone have the right to build a home as they please? Building codes intrude into almost every home-building decision.
                          It's called 'property rights' and the opposite of the nanny state.

                          If I build an apartment building that I plan to rent out to unsuspecting renters, I should be required to build it to the highest safety standard achievable. If I build a rural home for my own use, I should have a lot of leeway on how well I want to insulate the walls, what materials to use and yes, whether I want to put in sprinklers. Its that entire personal responsibility thing. Anyone buying such a home down the line should be assumed to be a sophisticated buyer who can fairly evaluate any risks associated with such a home.
                          I am not at all opposed to code requirements on things like egress from sleeping quarters and safe installation of utilities like gas and electric. It's the code requirements that affect matters of taste and personal choice that get on my nerves.
                          Last edited by Too_Old; 05-15-2018, 09:54 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                            I know of a fire department that labelled one of the rooms in their new station as sleeping quarters, thus had to install sprinklers. And two 12,000 gallon tanks, and the aforementioned pumps and power. They keep the tanks topped off from their well, and the tanks are also set up as a static water source for fires in their district..
                            A commercial building sprinkler system is a much different system than those allowed in one and two family dwellings. More coverage, actual property protection mission, higher design flows, all areas covered, etc.


                            Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                            My personal take on residential sprinklers? Stopping a fire in the incipient stage would mean only some repairs. If the house is damaged beyond repair (which happens within 10 minutes for most new construction), then the building industry gets to build a new house...
                            And if someone dies? Or a firefighter is injured? We don't need to prop up the same building industry that continues to build disposable houses that further endanger civilians and firefighters.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                              I suspect those states are in the minority and will likely disappear altogether soon enough.

                              Do these people not insure their homes? how do they carry a mortgage on them? I can't imagine the insurance companies being happy providing coverage to any piece of crap an owner decides to build. And they are pretty powerful lobbyists.
                              In Maine our legislature has adopted a statewide building code that applies only to communities over 4000 residents. So in those others (under 4K) as long as they have no code, no one checks on residential buildings. Those under 4K have to adopt the State's Code set if they adopt any building and Life Safety Codes. Certain commercial spaces require State Building permit in any community. I was asked to speak at a meeting, along with our Code Officer and a private firm on adopting Codes in a local community that had none. The private firm had numerous scary examples of locally built projects that were done to no code and had failed in some manner or another. Trusses with no actual design, rafters without collar ties and birds moths that pushed out the walls, large concrete walls with no reinforcement materials, and the list went on. Most cases resulted in uninhabitable buildings and lawsuits.

                              Property rights can allow owners to build what they want, but then apply reasonable safety to ensure the owner, his/her unsuspecting family, the next owners, the renters, and the responders are all protected to the minimum standards. Property rights should be about what you can do, not how you do it.

                              Of course each state also regulate the insurance industry. Again, here the insurance company cannot raise your rates for not utilizing sprinklers or charge more for new unsprinklered, but they can offer a discount. Of course telling them they can ask for less money results in a meager 10-20% off the fire portion of ones homeowners, hardly enough to pay for a system in the life of a home. They definitely would like more control over this, of course we're likely all skeptical to give them more latitude...
                              Last edited by RFDACM02; 05-16-2018, 08:06 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                                We don't need to prop up the same building industry that continues to build disposable houses that further endanger civilians and firefighters.
                                Exactly. Sorry for any confusion on that.

                                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                                Comment

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