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long driveway lay or shuttle?

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  • long driveway lay or shuttle?

    My Fire Dept is currently pre planning a house where there is a driveway thats roughly 2500ft long. The driveway is also very narrow, so only one truck can go up it at a time. The house is a large timber house with no suppression system on site. There is a small turn around spot where we could stage and turn around tankers but can only put two or three up at a time. Question is do we try relay pumping with three engines or shuttle tankers and stage them? keep in mind were in a rural area where it takes time to get apparatus on scene.

  • #2
    any ponds where you could install a dry hydrant ?
    ?

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    • #3
      None at all... we'd have to shuttle from a nearby pond

      Comment


      • #4
        None at all. We'd have to shuttle water in

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        • #5
          by the time you get a couple of engines spaced out and hooked up to relay pump --you could have a drop tank set up close and maybe be doing some good ---one thing to remember about the long driveway lays is ldh takes about a gallon a foot so 2500 lay will take about 2500 gallons just to fill it
          ?

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          • #6
            Not related to the question directly but in a way it is. I often wonder why we let people get away with this nonsense. Long narrow driveways, no place to set up decently to fight their fire, no water supply and no fire suppression systems. I believe it is high time we start demanding better access and either an on sight water supply or a fire suppression system. Or how about this idea. Sure you can have a driveway over 500 feet long BUT, you must put in an underground water main with a fire department connection at each end that the FD can hook up to and pump from the road up to the attack engine.

            Rant off. Seriously answer to your question. Tenders. For a single family dwelling by the time you set up a 2500 foot relay and get enough water on scene to fill it you won't need it because the house will be pretty much gone.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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            • #7
              Originally posted by fire5555

              Because this is America !!

              People can build on a cliff and watch thier house fall into the ocean

              People build up to brush and trees and watch thier house burn up in a wildland fire
              I'm sure you are being facetious. Frankly I am tired of people building houses where floods wipe them out every few years, or on cliffs where they fall into the ocean from a mud slide, or in places where wildfires burn them to the ground every couple of years. I wouldn't care except our Brother and Sister Firefighters are expected to save them when their stupidity puts them in harms way. And then the feds are funding recovery efforts.
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #8
                To answer fire5555 question I'd say it would take between 5-7min for apparatus to arrive on scene from our first due but mutual aid is closer so probably like 4 for them. I'm also thinking the same for tenders.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                  Not related to the question directly but in a way it is. I often wonder why we let people get away with this nonsense. Long narrow driveways, no place to set up decently to fight their fire, no water supply and no fire suppression systems. I believe it is high time we start demanding better access and either an on sight water supply or a fire suppression system. Or how about this idea. Sure you can have a driveway over 500 feet long BUT, you must put in an underground water main with a fire department connection at each end that the FD can hook up to and pump from the road up to the attack engine.
                  Probably more economical to order in a 20,000gal underground holding tank. We have a couple of facilities and homes in our service area that have on-site tanks with a dry hydrant. While not recognized by ISO, I believe individual insurance companies credit availability of a source for suppression water.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                    Probably more economical to order in a 20,000gal underground holding tank. We have a couple of facilities and homes in our service area that have on-site tanks with a dry hydrant. While not recognized by ISO, I believe individual insurance companies credit availability of a source for suppression water.
                    Installing and maintaining such a tank doesn't sound all that economical to me. And they would still be relying on the FD to show up and effectively use that water on an actively burning fire. A sprinkler system would begin suppression almost immediately.

                    The tank may help save a portion of the structure but it won't save any lives. The sprinklers will save almost all of the structure. And possibly some lives.

                    For me it is not even worth debating.

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                    • #11
                      Does this house use water from a municipal water supply? If so, would it be capable for sprinklers? If the water supply is capable, then encourage the property owner to install fire sprinklers.

                      While we are on this subject, homeowners can justify spending cash on a lawn sprinkling system, but not fire sprinklers in their home.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                        Installing and maintaining such a tank doesn't sound all that economical to me. And they would still be relying on the FD to show up and effectively use that water on an actively burning fire. A sprinkler system would begin suppression almost immediately.

                        The tank may help save a portion of the structure but it won't save any lives. The sprinklers will save almost all of the structure. And possibly some lives.

                        For me it is not even worth debating.
                        My post was in response to the suggestion to require a pipeline for the length of the driveway, not an alternative to a sprinkler system.

                        NFPA 13R sprinklers are an escape system designed to increase the occupants odds of escaping a fire. They are not designed to protect the structure against every kind of fire conceivable. Even with a sprinkler system, you are still going to need a water supply suitable to put out the fire.

                        These underground fiberglass cisterns require very little maintenance. They are below the frost line and have no moving parts. The plumbing is pretty much a dry-hydrant that goes into the sump sump and a screened off air intake. The homeowners or homeowners association make sure the tanks are topped off, and that the intake screen is clean. Once in a while we drill on the tank to make sure the driver can get a draft. This is not drinking water, this is purely for suppression.

                        Sure, would be nice to have a hydrant every 500ft. But that's just not gonna happen in many rural areas.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

                          My post was in response to the suggestion to require a pipeline for the length of the driveway, not an alternative to a sprinkler system.

                          NFPA 13R sprinklers are an escape system designed to increase the occupants odds of escaping a fire. They are not designed to protect the structure against every kind of fire conceivable. Even with a sprinkler system, you are still going to need a water supply suitable to put out the fire.

                          These underground fiberglass cisterns require very little maintenance. They are below the frost line and have no moving parts. The plumbing is pretty much a dry-hydrant that goes into the sump sump and a screened off air intake. The homeowners or homeowners association make sure the tanks are topped off, and that the intake screen is clean. Once in a while we drill on the tank to make sure the driver can get a draft. This is not drinking water, this is purely for suppression.

                          Sure, would be nice to have a hydrant every 500ft. But that's just not gonna happen in many rural areas.
                          Fair enough.

                          In my experience sprinklers would indeed control the majority of fires before they get to the point where large amounts of water are needed. I believe the statistics back this up. It is around 90% of fires that are controlled by sprinklers prior to FD arrival. Even though the standard does not call for that. I believe it calls for 10 minutes of control to allow for escape (NFPA 13R and 13D).

                          500 feet between hydrants would be a lot for us!.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FIRE117 View Post
                            Does this house use water from a municipal water supply? If so, would it be capable for sprinklers? If the water supply is capable, then encourage the property owner to install fire sprinklers.

                            While we are on this subject, homeowners can justify spending cash on a lawn sprinkling system, but not fire sprinklers in their home.
                            We need to make fire sprinklers cool, something they can show off to their friends. Most think they are ugly and thanks to Hollywood many think somebody smoking a cigarette will set off all the sprinklers and flood their house.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Here and there View Post

                              We need to make fire sprinklers cool, something they can show off to their friends. Most think they are ugly and thanks to Hollywood many think somebody smoking a cigarette will set off all the sprinklers and flood their house.
                              There are flush mounted sprinkler heads that can be made to pretty much disappear. It's just that the builders don't spec them due to additional cost.

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