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  • #61
    Originally posted by paddyc View Post
    All of the information is on their Public Safety department web page
    Ah, there it is.

    I must say, that is...... interesting...... Some highlights from the Auburn Student Public Safety Program website:
    Student Firefighter Program

    This is the longest running of our student programs. Student Firefighters are responsible for much of the staffing of Auburn's municipal fire protection system.

    Student Firefighters are required to pass Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT) and interview for the position. Selected candidates will then attend a 14-week recruit-training academy, which includes Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) - Basic as well as Firefighter I and II. The academy is rigorous, demanding superior academic, hands-on, and physical fitness performance.

    Students who graduate are assigned to fire companies based on order of merit of graduation and need of the Fire Division. Upon assignment to a fire company, Student Firefighters are responsible for fire suppression, rescue, prevention activities and other duties as assigned. They work under the direct supervision of an experienced Lieutenant.
    I can honestly say I have never heard of a system that runs like this. They take people with 0 experience, and put them through a 14 week (I'm assuming monday to friday, 9 to 5 schedule) training program, including EMT, and put them on the truck. And in exchange they reimburse for tuition (under grad only, there goes my shot).

    I'll be honest: I like it. the students are fully trained to career standards, and do the same job as firefighters. I don't know how the city affords it, but it is definitely something that I would have loved doing when I was looking at school. I don't think it will work everywhere, but the students get paid (albeit poorly in my opinion), but it's more fun than some of the jobs I had in college. If it works for them, and they have been running the program successfully for 20 years without a drop in staffing levels, I think it's great idea.
    Originally posted by paddyc View Post
    The list of fire departments shows the departments that I know of that use temporary firefighters. Some offer as little as free living quarters, others offer full tuition reimbursement. The amount of incentives varies by local needs and resources.
    Part of the issue is you using the term "temporary firefighters." Auburn considers their "student firefighters" as people who have completed a 14 week academy, including Firefighter 1 & 2, and EMT training (which is the standard minimum career firefighter training level). Can you say the same for all those departments in the list? I doubt it.

    Than you mention some offer living quarters, while others offer tuition reimbursement. Those are two very different "incentives", with two drastically different expenses. I can tell you from the list you provided, there are departments that either offer very limited conditions for tuition assistance (if at all), and not all allow offer housing. At least one offers neither, so I don't know why they are even on the list.

    So I'm betting that of the 350 departments in 40 states, maybe 35 do what Auburn does (which appears to be pretty impressive, I encourage everyone to check it out). That's 10% that is doing it right. That is also 90% that aren't following the "military model" as you are describing it; you are cherry picking one feature (I'm betting it's having volunteers do duty shifts in the station to ensure staff is ready to go when a call goes out), and using it to support your idea, when in reality, it doesn't.

    If you want to back up your claim, you should add the following information to every department: Does the department provide tuition reimbursement to students (yes, yes with conditions, no), does the department provide free housing or housing reimbursement (yes/no), does the department require basic firefighter training prior to getting on a truck (defined as firefighter I, EMT), (yes/no), does the department provide the appropriate training, or does the student need to have it prior to consideration (department provides training or sends student to academy, student must come in certified), and does the department pay their student an hourly wage during their time (yes, yes/less than minimum wage/stipend only, no).

    Will it work everywhere? probably not. Can it be used in some places? well, assuming the student firefighters are properly training, and aren't taking the place of a career firefighter, I don't see why not.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by paddyc View Post

      How so? The military staffs their infantry units with career personnel who are augmented by enlistees. Fire departments are staffing engine and ladder companies the same way.
      Well, no.

      The lowest ranks in the military are indeed made up of folks who enlisted for two, three, or four years (depending on the service and current practices). After that period is past, they are usually gone, unless they have decided to make a career of the military. If they decide to stay in, they have to meet requirements, and if they do not meet those requirements, out they go. You can't stay in the military as an E-2 for 20 years. You are expected to progress.

      In the fire service, folks get hired with the intention of staying until they retire. They then progress through the ranks, if they so desire. A firefighter who wants to remain on the back step can do so. They will see longevity pay increases through the years, but they will remain back step firefighters - by choice.

      As such, in career departments, there are no "temporary" firefighters. That's not to say that there are no volunteer/paid-on-call personnel on the roster, or that they don't accept bunk-ins.

      In the case of student bunk-ins, they, too, are pursuing a career in firefighting. Perhaps a better analogy would be the farm system in baseball. The students a playing in the "minor leagues" until they can get picked up by a pro team. Not a perfect analogy, but better than the military model.

      I think the problem is your concept of a "temporary firefighter." Students, as described for Maryland and New York, may be at a station temporarily, as in while they are in school, but their purpose is not to provide temporary staffing, the way someone from a temp agency would.

      Many - if not most - volunteer stations in the urban/suburban areas of Maryland have bunking facilities. As was noted, in many cases these are not students, or temporaries. They live at the station because they can (and want to), and part of their "rent" is running calls.

      Another note on places like PG County - there is no "respond from home" for first due apparatus. If you're not in the station, you won't be on the first due. Those departments run with duty crews. Also, PG County dispatches by apparatus, not station, as do many other counties.

      Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

      Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by paddyc View Post

        How so? The military staffs their infantry units with career personnel who are augmented by enlistees. Fire departments are staffing engine and ladder companies the same way.
        I answered that question earlier. Feel free to review my earlier posts.

        They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

        I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by paddyc View Post
          They cannot be effective with deficient crew sizes. The military staffing model is a more cost-efficient way of supplying the needed numbers of firefighters.
          My statement really had nothing to do with how the departments are staffed. It was about how lacking the staffing, regardless of who it is, can be.

          I have no problem with qualified firefighters working as firefighters whether it be for salary, tuition, housing, etc.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
            I have no problem with qualified firefighters working as firefighters whether it be for salary, tuition, housing, etc.
            I underlined and bolded one of the key words in that statement.

            If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

            FF/EMT/DBP

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

              My bet is you are a consultant looking to peddle an idea.
              You'd be correct.
              http://www.fdexcellence.com/achievin...ment-staffing/

              And, he's preaching it to ICMA as well. You know, the group that lobbies on behalf of city and county management? But I'm sure it's all about firefighter safety, like he said earlier.

              https://icma.org/articles/pm-magazin...affing-dilemma

              Comment


              • #67
                He also published his idea in https://www.firechief.com/2017/10/11...-combat-ready/ So he might not be a consultant, but a blogger looking to transition into the consulting world.

                Not for nothing, but the author retired as a chief in 1993, and since then has spent years in fire codes and sprinkler safety. Had he been honest and upfront about everything, I'd be willing to listen, but I don't like someone who uses half truths to back up his statements (including the 350 departments that use this military style staffing, that's not even close to accurate, as I stated previously), or lies about their objective.

                BTW, I do agree that college students can be great resources of manpower for fire departments; but replacing career FFs with student firefighters is still a bad idea, anyway you look at it. And on that note, I'm done.
                If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                FF/EMT/DBP

                Comment


                • #68
                  I don't know where you got the consultant idea. My blog site makes my purpose very clear. I share my information for free with fire chiefs who are looking for ways to cut or control costs without reducing effectiveness.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by paddyc View Post
                    I don't know where you got the consultant idea. My blog site makes my purpose very clear. I share my information for free with fire chiefs who are looking for ways to cut or control costs without reducing effectiveness.
                    If you have anything to do with ICMA you are an anti- Union, anti-Firefighter, piece of human debris.

                    My former career FD had a former fire chief consultant from ICMA come in and recommend slashing staffing, reducing equipment, and if I remember right, even eliminating a station. His opinions were not only unfavorably viewed by the rank and file firefighters but the Chief too. In the end his ludicrous recommendations were not followed.

                    Now you and your idiotic plan make perfect sense. The worst enemy to the fire service is a retired chief that turns consultant and attempts to shaft Union firefighters.
                    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-17-2018, 10:20 PM.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                      If you have anything to do with ICMA you are an anti- Union, anti-Firefighter, piece of garbage.

                      Now you and your idiotic plan make perfect sense. The worst enemy to the fire service is a retired chief that turns consultant and attempts to shaft Union firefighters.
                      Enough with the invective, please. I wrote the article for the ICMA magazine precisely to inform city managers of a viable option to the ICMA consultants recommendations - which are always to cut fire suppression staff. That is sheer idiocy.

                      Since you do not know me, I'll ignore your comment on shafting Union firefighters. I am Union born and bred, and was the VP of my IAFF local. I support the military staffing model for career departments because it enables them to cut costs without cutting staff. And by the way, there is nothing preventing Locals insisting that the firefighter interns (or whatever they call them) be union members.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by paddyc View Post

                        Enough with the invective, please. I wrote the article for the ICMA magazine precisely to inform city managers of a viable option to the ICMA consultants recommendations - which are always to cut fire suppression staff. That is sheer idiocy.

                        Since you do not know me, I'll ignore your comment on shafting Union firefighters. I am Union born and bred, and was the VP of my IAFF local. I support the military staffing model for career departments because it enables them to cut costs without cutting staff. And by the way, there is nothing preventing Locals insisting that the firefighter interns (or whatever they call them) be union members.
                        You more than wrote an article for ICMA. I looked up your profile on LinkedIn.

                        I have absolutely no use whatsoever for ICMA. Go back and read my edited post and see my experience with them.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                          You more than wrote an article for ICMA. I looked up your profile on LinkedIn.
                          Huh? Please explain.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I just checked my LinkedIn profile, and have no idea what you are referring to.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by paddyc View Post
                              Huh? Please explain.
                              I'm done with you. Any alliance with ICMA makes you an enemy of the fire service in my book.
                              Last edited by FyredUp; 05-17-2018, 10:45 PM.
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I'll ignore your comment on shafting Union firefighters. I am Union born and bred, and was the VP of my IAFF local.
                                Most chiefs are former union members. They are usually the worst when it comes to shafting the rank and file .
                                Last edited by scfire86; 05-18-2018, 01:21 PM.
                                They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                                I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                                Comment

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