Announcement

Collapse

Firehouse.com Forum Rules & Guidelines

Forum Rules & Guidelines

Not Permitted or Tolerated:
• Advertising and/or links of commercial, for-profit websites, products, and/or services is not permitted. If you have a need to advertise on Firehouse.com please contact sales@firehouse.com
• Fighting/arguing
• Cyber-bullying
• Swearing
• Name-calling and/or personal attacks
• Spamming
• Typing in all CAPS
• “l33t speak” - Substituting characters for letters in an effort to represent a word or phrase. (example: M*****ive)
• Distribution of another person’s personal information, regardless of whether or not said information is public knowledge and whether or not an individual has permission to post said personal information
• Piracy advocation of any kind
• Racist, sexual, hate type defamatory, religious, political, or sexual commentary.
• Multiple forum accounts

Forum Posting Guidelines:

Posts must be on-topic, non-disruptive and relevant to the firefighting community. Post only in a mature and responsible way that contributes to the discussion at hand. Posting relevant information, helpful suggestions and/or constructive criticism is a great way to contribute to the community.

Post in the correct forum and have clear titles for your threads.

Please post in English or provide a translation.

There are moderators and admins who handle these forums with care, do not resort to self-help, instead please utilize the reporting option. Be mature and responsible for yourself and your posts. If you are offended by another member utilize the reporting option. All reported posts will be addressed and dealt with as deemed appropriate by Firehouse.com staff.

Firehouse.com Moderation Process:
Effective immediately, the following moderation process will take effect. User(s) whose posts are determined by Firehouse.com staff to be in violation of any of the rules above will EARN the following reprimand(s) in the moderation process:
1. An initial warning will be issued.
2. A Final Warning will be issued if a user is found to be in violation a second time.
3. A 3-day suspension will be issued if the user continues to break the forum rules.
4. A 45-day suspension will be issued if the user is found to be a habitual rule breaker.
5. Habitual rule breakers that have exhausted all of the above will receive a permanent life-time ban that will be strictly enforced. Reinstatement will not be allowed – there is no appeal process.

Subsequent accounts created in an effort to side-step the rules and moderation process are subject to automatic removal without notice. Firehouse.com reserves the right to expedite the reprimand process for any users as it is deemed necessary. Any user in the moderation process may be required to review and agree to by email the terms and conditions listed above before their account is re-instated (except for those that are banned).

Firehouse.com reserves the right to edit and/or remove any post or member, at any time, for any reason without notice. Firehouse.com also reserves the right to warn, suspend, and/or ban, any member, at any time, for any reason.

Firehouse.com values the active participation we have in our forums. Please ensure your posts are tasteful and tactful. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
See more
See less

Did deficient crew size affect your actions?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    If I read you right you would replace full time career firefighters with college student part-timers ...
    Wasn't me that suggested that.
    I was just pointing to Paddy what's going on in one instance.

    As for Watertown, the desire is/was to cut the fire department even further. With no minimum manning in the contract, the possibility of two-man engine companies or brown-outs becomes real.

    Are you a firefighter?
    Yep - 40 year vollie.

    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

    Comment


    • #32
      Sorry tree68...I misread your intent.

      My humblest apologies.

      I am 100% opposed to cutting staffing and even more opposed to cutting staffing or not replacing retirees with new hires. Any plan that calls for replacing needed career firefighters with students, interns, or volunteers will NEVER get my support.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by paddyc View Post
        Fire departments that use military-style staffing fill engine and ladder truck positions in a similar way. Career firefighters fill the leadership and technical slots. The other slots are filled by individuals who sign up to work full-time in return for free college educations at area colleges in their off-duty time. Similar to the military, about half of them decide to become career firefighters when they finish school.

        I know of some union departments that use the model, so there are ways to do so.
        What departments are you referring to? I have never heard of a career fire department operating this way. Especially not a union one. I know around the DC metro area those Fire Departments recruit heavily from the local colleges (College Park FD comes to mind), but they exchange time on the engine for free housing, and it's usually a mix of students who are a revolving door and locals who work and live in the area.

        I have never heard of your type of model. Plus, considering how expansive it is to train a new hire (salary in academy, cost of academy, plus your probationary time), It would seem to be inefficient to do this. The Military is a little different, because they aren't know for their cost effective budgets (although many of the active duty soldiers to get paid peanuts, so they do save some money there).

        Originally posted by paddyc View Post
        Using firefighter interns to augment career crews is one way to do that.
        Using interns to augment a 100% career department is only a good idea if the career department is 100% staffed. In that case, they are a bonus (4 guys + the student, makes things easier, but the not required to get the job done). Using interns/students to supplement an understaffed career department is a bad idea.

        The same statement has been made to supplement or replace career firefighters with volunteers. It?s a bad idea. In general, it takes 4 volunteers to replace 1 full time career firefighter. This has nothing to do with qualifications, but rather availability; the volunteer has another job, and most people can?t dedicate 40-56 hours to the FD on top of a 40 hour full time job, plus a family and life. A full time career firefighter is guaranteed to be at the fire station every 3rd day (or whatever schedule they work), barring sick or vacation time. Can your volunteers say the same? Can your interns say the same?

        While I am pro volunteer (provided minimum training requirements are the same as their career counterparts), I understand that a career department needs to be staffed effectively to do the job, and that costs $$$$$. If you want the service, you need to budget for it. When someone retires, their spot needs to be replaced. Call volumes are only getting busier (especially since we are going on more EMS jobs because people won't properly fund EMS systems), so we need more manpower to handle the call volume effectively.

        It's not really rocket science, and the more you kick the can down the road (by using interns, volunteers, students, whatever), it's only putting off the inevitable, and then you get people who say "15 men is too expensive, do the job with less." Your going to get burned sooner or later.
        If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

        FF/EMT/DBP

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by drparasite View Post
          What departments are you referring to? I have never heard of a career fire department operating this way. Especially not a union one. I know around the DC metro area those Fire Departments recruit heavily from the local colleges (College Park FD comes to mind), but they exchange time on the engine for free housing, and it's usually a mix of students who are a revolving door and locals who work and live in the area.

          I have never heard of your type of model. Plus, considering how expansive it is to train a new hire (salary in academy, cost of academy, plus your probationary time), It would seem to be inefficient to do this. The Military is a little different, because they aren't know for their cost effective budgets (although many of the active duty soldiers to get paid peanuts, so they do save some money there).

          I was thinking the same thing. I know of no CA department that utilizes this model. It seems like just another ploy to get cheap labor.

          Years ago there was a former police chief in the LA area proposing this model.

          It never took hold anywhere.

          I always like these "new" ideas. The proponents are so sure of themselves in their idea's viability. They can't point to where it has worked anywhere.
          They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

          I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

          Comment


          • #35
            My database of fire departments that use temporary firefighters has over 350 entries in 40 states. One half are career or combination, the rest volunteer. This is hardly a new concept. The earliest program began in 1947 and is still operating. The largest department has 47 stations and over 1000 career firefighters. One third of the stations use temporary firefighters. In those stations, the medic crews are career and on duty 24/7. The pumper and ladder crews have career firefighters during the day and resident firefighters handle evenings and weekends.

            Yes, there would be recruit training every year or so. But when career slots open up, the departments hire the graduates, who are already trained and have four years of full-time experience.

            Comment


            • #36
              OK....... what is the department you are referring to? 47 stations is not podunk, that's the size of a large city or entire county. In fact, it sounds like how some departments in the Austin or Houston area operate. And if this is what they do, it's not like it's a secret or anything.

              Many departments still use volunteers during the night and weekends, and career during the day. These departments used to be 100% volunteer, and hired some career staff during the day times when many of their volunteers were unavailable. Same thing happen in the DC metro area. I've never heard of them use the term "temporary firefighters."

              I'm not against volunteers providing the service, nor am I against career staff handling during the day while volunteers do nights and weekends, provided the minimum training levels are the same. I am 100% against not filling a career position, and replacing that position with a warm body who doesn't have the same qualifications, or is still in training because they are cheaper.

              Let me put it this way: There is nothing wrong with Joe Firefighter, who is in training to be a fully qualified firefighter, hopping on an engine with a crew of 4, making him the 5th firefighter. If they get a major incident (house fire, pin, hazmat, you name it), Joe can be a lot of help, and allows those 4 firefighters to do their job. But when the 4th FF retires, and Joe takes their place, then the crew is still running short. Joe doesn't have Firefighter I & II. Joe isn't an EMT. He might not have basic HazMat class. So is he qualified to take the place of a fully qualified firefighter? not really. Can he pull hose? sure. can he hook up a hydrant? why not. Are you going to trust Joe to vent the roof by himself? ehhh. what about do a search in 0 visibility? ummmmm. do you want Joe on your RIT team when things go bad? And if you do, and Joe gets hurt, and OSHA investigates and find he lacked the formal training of others, than how will you defend your actions?

              Now if Joe has all his qualifications, and is covering for a sick or vacationing firefighter, sure, he can be that 4th man to prevent them from running short on a very short term basis, because he can do everything a career FF can do. But if you have a full time career opening, it should be filed with a full time career firefighter.

              Originally posted by paddyc View Post
              But when career slots open up, the departments hire the graduates, who are already trained and have four years of full-time experience.
              I might be in the minority here, but I'm not moving to an area to volunteer for 4 years and hope and pray I get lucky enough to be selected for a career job with the department when the opportunity arises. I'll move for a job offer, but not simply for a temporary position. But that might just be me
              If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

              FF/EMT/DBP

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by paddyc View Post
                My database of fire departments that use temporary firefighters has over 350 entries in 40 states. One half are career or combination, the rest volunteer. This is hardly a new concept. The earliest program began in 1947 and is still operating. The largest department has 47 stations and over 1000 career firefighters. One third of the stations use temporary firefighters. In those stations, the medic crews are career and on duty 24/7. The pumper and ladder crews have career firefighters during the day and resident firefighters handle evenings and weekends.

                Yes, there would be recruit training every year or so. But when career slots open up, the departments hire the graduates, who are already trained and have four years of full-time experience.
                What's in this for you? It seems there must be something. Another chance at being recognized nationally? A blaze of glory at the end of your career?

                Your idea has not garnered one person here, career or volunteer, that supports your idea.

                There can be no automatic hire of your student firefighters in places where a civil service exam system is in place. They would be required to go through the competitive process like every other candidate.

                A little analogy for you. You list 350 entries in 40 states as proof the idea has validity. Here's my example of where your data fails. For over 200 years asbestos was used in the manufacture of millions of items, from shingles, to floor tile, to adhesives, to insulation, and more. Why? Because it was a cheap filler that offered some strength, resiliency, and heat resistance. In the end that cheap product cost billions of dollars in law suits and healthcare costs, as well as spawning the asbestos removal industry that also added millions in costs to businesses and homeowners. My point? Just because something costs less doesn't mean it is a good idea.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by drparasite View Post
                  I might be in the minority here, but I'm not moving to an area to volunteer for 4 years and hope and pray I get lucky enough to be selected for a career job with the department when the opportunity arises. I'll move for a job offer, but not simply for a temporary position. But that might just be me
                  That is not the way it works. They do the same job as their career peers, receive the same training before they are appointed, and have the same qualifications. The term "temporary" is my own, and means that these employees sign on for a limited period (2-6 years). A lot of departments call them firefighter interns.

                  You seem to be assuming that all of them want to become career firefighters. That is not the case. At the end of their terms, about one half decide to look for career positions. The others move on to civilian jobs, but with a very valuable commodity, a college degree and no student debt.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                    What's in this for you?
                    It has always been, and remains, firefighter safety.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by paddyc View Post

                      It has always been, and remains, firefighter safety.
                      My bet is you are a consultant looking to peddle an idea.
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by paddyc View Post
                        That is not the way it works. They do the same job as their career peers, receive the same training before they are appointed, and have the same qualifications. The term "temporary" is my own, and means that these employees sign on for a limited period (2-6 years). A lot of departments call them firefighter interns.
                        Oh. So they have the same qualifications as their career counterparts, yet one works for an hourly wage, while the other goes to school? how do the interns make money? 2-6 years without any income doesn't sound like a viable idea. Unless they are working a full time job too, and going to school, and interning at the FD. in which case, I guess they just don't have a life until their internship is over. In either case, it would take 3-4 interns to take the place of one firefighter.
                        Originally posted by paddyc View Post
                        You seem to be assuming that all of them want to become career firefighters. That is not the case. At the end of their terms, about one half decide to look for career positions. The others move on to civilian jobs, but with a very valuable commodity, a college degree and no student debt.
                        First off, I think you are overselling the "very valuable commodity" (whether you are talking about the FD experience or the degree, I'm not entirely sure). Secondly, I never said they all want to become career firefighters: you said "But when career slots open up, the departments hire the graduates, who are already trained and have four years of full-time experience." Sounds like a huge selling point.

                        I'm still waiting to hear what departments actually do this. Name the departments. You said 350 departments in 40 states. I've asked twice, and this will be my third and final time. No one here thinks what you are discussing is a good idea, a practical idea, or realistic, so if it's actually happening, I wouldn't mind looking up said departments, and reaching out to someone who has been running a program that you describe successfully, especially the one that has been running since 1947, after 70+ years, they should have all the kinks worked out of the program. Because I am very skeptical, especially if they are doing what you describe.

                        I will also say this: If I was 20 years younger, and looking at undergrad, and a fire department told me they would provide housing for me for 4 years, as well as pay all my college tuition (and hopefully all the damn fees, even if they didn't cover housing, I can get my own apartment), and all I would have to do is answer fire calls when i'm not in class or at work (or drunk), it would be hard for me to turn down. My degree from Syracuse cost $40,670 per year then, and now the cost per year is $$65,480. So $65k a year in college expenses for a guy who likes to answer calls on a fire engine sounds like a nobrainer, even if I had 0 desire to become a career firefighter. If that's the case, I might even suggest that my son look into that when he starts looking at colleges. Heck, I might even do it now if they will pay for my MBA. If you can actually provide the names of departments that actually do this.

                        But here's the thing: If I (the hypothetical intern) am in school, at work, or not at the firehouse, what happens? does the engine run short? Does the ladder run with only 2 guys until I get back from calculus? lets say the driver and officer are full time, and both me and my buddy are interns. Are we unable to take classes at the same time? will they run 2 short until he gets back from history class?

                        a full time firefighter's primary responsibility is his or her job; the same is not true for the intern, which is why I totally support having career firefighters being assigned to fill the shift, and intern/volunteers/cadets/juniors/temporary firefighters/whatever as supplemental staffing, and not replacement staffing for existing career positions.

                        Until you can provide the names of the departments that are running this type of program, (preferably the bigger 100% career or combination departments), this will be my last comment on this thread.
                        ​There are two types of expenses that make up the cost of attendance for undergraduates: direct expenses and indirect expenses.
                        If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                        FF/EMT/DBP

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                          My bet is you are a consultant looking to peddle an idea.
                          Wrong. A retired fire chief trying to help chiefs get adequate staffing.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I have not updated this for a couple of years, so some departments are missing.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by drparasite View Post
                              How do the interns make money?
                              Some still depend on their parents for support. Some departments pay them an hourly wage. The best example is the Auburn Alabama fire division. It provides tuition, hourly pay and living quarters. It operates for 20 percent less than similar departments with all-career personnel.
                              First off, I think you are overselling the "very valuable commodity" (whether you are talking about the FD experience or the degree, I'm not entirely sure).
                              Per the news reports about crushing student debt, a free degree is a valuable commodity.
                              I'm still waiting to hear what departments actually do this.
                              Attached in another reply. It is two years out of date.
                              I will also say this: If I was 20 years younger, and looking at undergrad, and a fire department told me they would provide housing for me for 4 years, as well as pay all my college tuition (and hopefully all the damn fees, even if they didn't cover housing, I can get my own apartment), and all I would have to do is answer fire calls when i'm not in class or at work (or drunk), it would be hard for me to turn down.
                              That is my point. It is a big incentive for people (who can qualify) to perform a valuable public service for their community.
                              If I (the hypothetical intern) am in school, at work, or not at the firehouse, what happens? does the engine run short? Does the ladder run with only 2 guys until I get back from calculus? lets say the driver and officer are full time, and both me and my buddy are interns. Are we unable to take classes at the same time? will they run 2 short until he gets back from history class?
                              It varies by department. Auburn requires them to take one semester per year off from school and work 40-hour shifts. They fill in for students while the attend class. Others pay off-duty student/firefighters to fill in. It is not a big problem. They work 9 days a month, and more online classes are available to reduce absences from duty.
                              a full time firefighter's primary responsibility is his or her job;
                              Let's be honest. I wish that were true, but we both know that it isn't the case for many firefighters. For many, the job is a good way to earn a pension while focusing on their off-duty jobs.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The bulk of the departments listed for Maryland are actually stations within several county fire departments (a significant number are in Prince Georges County). College Park, in particular, uses students in the MFRI fire science program. A number of others do as well.

                                PG County gives an assigned apparatus about a minute to mark up enroute, career or volunteer. They also report their staffing when going enroute. "Four plus one" would indicate a crew of four with a rider.

                                A significant number of the New York departments listed are in Onondaga County and their bunk-ins are students in the Onondaga Community College fire science program. Dewitt, Manlius, and East Syracuse are combination departments. Qualified students run as full team members. Most are members of their home department.
                                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                300x600 Forums Only

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Lower 970x90

                                Collapse

                                Lower 728x90

                                Collapse

                                Lower 300x50

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X