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Primary search of a burning structure without having a hose team in place

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  • Primary search of a burning structure without having a hose team in place

    So yesterday Battalion Chief Butthead ordered a ladder company to conduct a primary search of a multi story burning structure without having a hose team and backup or RIT/FAST in place and ready, only water from the can man's extinguisher. Fortunately they made it out OK and found no occupants but said it was too close for comfort and they were taking too much heat in there.

  • #2
    If you work for a major paid city department as you claim, then you know that searching without benefit of an in place handline is a routine occurrence. Search teams simply do not wait for operating handlines. They know the handline is on it's way and that any abnormal delay will be reported to all operating members immediately. Occupied structures demand immediate search. The only thing that prevents it are conditions that are untenable. I know of no department that takes the decision making away from the involved members when it comes to entry versus no entry. Certainly no big city department would do that. Chiefs order searches as per SOP all the time. Nowhere is it written that those searching members cannot leave the area if conditions become untenable.

    How much heat is too much? Obviously they made it out unharmed. Maybe you just don't have the chops for this whole firefighting thing. Sometimes it gets ugly.

    There are young firefighters who look to these forums as a way to learn. Your troll posts are spreading bad information in numerous threads. You should rethink this method of amusing yourself.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by captnjak View Post
      If you work for a major paid city department as you claim, then you know that searching without benefit of an in place handline is a routine occurrence. Search teams simply do not wait for operating handlines. They know the handline is on it's way and that any abnormal delay will be reported to all operating members immediately. Occupied structures demand immediate search. The only thing that prevents it are conditions that are untenable. I know of no department that takes the decision making away from the involved members when it comes to entry versus no entry. Certainly no big city department would do that. Chiefs order searches as per SOP all the time. Nowhere is it written that those searching members cannot leave the area if conditions become untenable.

      How much heat is too much? Obviously they made it out unharmed. Maybe you just don't have the chops for this whole firefighting thing. Sometimes it gets ugly.

      There are young firefighters who look to these forums as a way to learn. Your troll posts are spreading bad information in numerous threads. You should rethink this method of amusing yourself.
      I am convinced he is a troll. No one, and I mean no one, could possibly be as phucking stupid, clueless, and at the same time arrogant as he is. Still not convinced he isn't a plant by FH.com to boost post count.

      By the way, those of us that really do the job, or have done the job, know that search without a hoseline is very much the standard way of doing business under a lot of circumstances.. I have to wonder if the super genius has ever heard of VES.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #4
        Isn't this FDNY's SOP? Truck Company goes in, finds the fire, contains it if possible, tells the engine company where to go, and searches for victims while they are at it?

        I'm sure they aren't the only department to operate this way.

        Maybe if we don't feed the troll he will get bored and go away?
        If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

        FF/EMT/DBP

        Comment


        • #5
          I suspect he's a teen - highly idealistic, but very short on experience. Knows just enough to talk the talk, but has never walked the walk. We had a youngster on a railroad forum like that for a while. He had everyone convinced he was an Amtrak engineer, but things never quite lined up and he was eventually outed (and admitted to it).
          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
            If you work for a major paid city department as you claim, then you know that searching without benefit of an in place handline is a routine occurrence. Search teams simply do not wait for operating handlines. They know the handline is on it's way and that any abnormal delay will be reported to all operating members immediately. Occupied structures demand immediate search. The only thing that prevents it are conditions that are untenable. I know of no department that takes the decision making away from the involved members when it comes to entry versus no entry. Certainly no big city department would do that. Chiefs order searches as per SOP all the time. Nowhere is it written that those searching members cannot leave the area if conditions become untenable.

            How much heat is too much? Obviously they made it out unharmed. Maybe you just don't have the chops for this whole firefighting thing. Sometimes it gets ugly.
            Nice post.
            The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
            There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
            Captain Dave LeBlanc

            Comment


            • #7
              This kid is an idiot.

              While I generally don't agree with searching without a hoseline, I understand that in urban situations it's often 100% necessary, and yes, there have been situations where I have done it as well. But for a kid who claims to work for a "major metro department" to make this statement shows me that he is not who he claims to be.

              Go away child. There is adult business being conducted here.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #8
                You guys are just fattening up this troll, and he's gotta be obese by now. Haven't you heard the old adage: "Feed a Fever, starve a troll"?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sad to say this troll is about the only one getting some of these discussions going. And the same handful of us are responding. This forum could be held face to face in a small room at this point.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by drparasite View Post
                    Isn't this FDNY's SOP? Truck Company goes in, finds the fire, contains it if possible, tells the engine company where to go, and searches for victims while they are at it?

                    I'm sure they aren't the only department to operate this way.

                    Maybe if we don't feed the troll he will get bored and go away?
                    Definitely FDNY policy and that of many departments. If the resources are available within an acceptable response time, why would you be anything but aggressive?

                    Major city paid departments like this guy supposedly works for often respond to very old, very crowded attached multiple dwellings. If the department waits for it to be safe to operate, the civilians will jump out the windows. Plain and simple. Ask anyone who works in such an area. We are all aware of it. And these are not one and two story buildings but three to six stories generally. Long way down. Getting ladders to rear for rescue is very difficult because there are no alleyways between buildings. Trapped victims in the front have a shot since aerials and tower ladders can be raised. Those in the rear are screwed.
                    The truck just doesn't wait for the handline. They do everything possible to find a way to get to the people who need help. These major city paid departments consider this to be a bread and butter part of firefighting.
                    I don't know what perfect probie considers it. Foolishness? Bad leadership? Incompetence? I just know he's wrong. troll or not.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by drparasite View Post
                      Isn't this FDNY's SOP? Truck Company goes in, finds the fire, contains it if possible, tells the engine company where to go, and searches for victims while they are at it?

                      I'm sure they aren't the only department to operate this way.
                      ?
                      They need to change the SOP in the interest of safety.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                        Major city paid departments like this guy supposedly works for often respond to very old, very crowded attached multiple dwellings. If the department waits for it to be safe to operate, the civilians will jump out the windows. Plain and simple. Ask anyone who works in such an area. We are all aware of it. And these are not one and two story buildings but three to six stories generally. Long way down. Getting ladders to rear for rescue is very difficult because there are no alleyways between buildings. Trapped victims in the front have a shot since aerials and tower ladders can be raised. Those in the rear are screwed.
                        The truck just doesn't wait for the handline. They do everything possible to find a way to get to the people who need help. These major city paid departments consider this to be a bread and butter part of firefighting.
                        This is why aerial ladder and platform apparatus should have pumps and carry tank water, so that the first in truck company performing the primary search can have a hand line instantly in addition to or in place of the water can(s). A 150-200GPM 1.75" hand line vs. a 2.5 gallon water can is a no brainer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by APerfectProbie View Post

                          They need to change the SOP in the interest of safety.
                          You just show over and over and over how incredibly ignorant you are. Remember the job is to SAVE LIVES.

                          You should shut up and go away.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by APerfectProbie View Post

                            This is why aerial ladder and platform apparatus should have pumps and carry tank water, so that the first in truck company performing the primary search can have a hand line instantly in addition to or in place of the water can(s). A 150-200GPM 1.75" hand line vs. a 2.5 gallon water can is a no brainer.
                            The job of an engine company is to supply water to fight the fire. If you bog down the ladder company with hoselines then who does search, forcible entry, ventilation, utility control, and the other important jobs of the ladder crew. Again, your ignorance is simply appalling about how things are actually done in the real world.

                            You should shut up and go away.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              The job of an engine company is to supply water to fight the fire. If you bog down the ladder company with hoselines then who does search, forcible entry, ventilation, utility control, and the other important jobs of the ladder crew. Again, your ignorance is simply appalling about how things are actually done in the real world.
                              Add a person or two to the ladder companies so they can operate as quints. In some cases this will reduce the need for engines and engine companies. 8 to 10 firefighters on one multi purpose apparatus instead of being divided between two. Case in point small fires or MVAs. A ladder and an engine are rolled for manpower and in some cases tools when one unit with pumping capability would suffice.

                              Comment

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