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  • #91
    Originally posted by captnjak View Post

    There is history here that pre-dates my time on this site.

    But Isn't a risk vs reward analyses pretty much a universal requirement? Am I missing something?

    My department is lightyears apart from a department like yours in many ways (staffing, resources, training, building construction/occupancy, etc). But a risk vs reward decision has to be part of both. And any department in between. Anyone disputing that is not someone I want to really have in a decision making role of any kind. Is it ignorance? False bravado? Something else?

    We are blessed with quick response times and great staffing, among other things. Yet there are still fires at which we will not go interior. No one calls us cowards for doing so.
    Captnjak,

    The history of bashing LaFireEducator is long and deep. I was once a major element in the bash. Bobby and I met face to face on 2 occasions and talked things out. It is clear that in some circumstances with the manpower on hand that making entry is dangerous beyond necessity and an unrealistic expectation. Add to that the potential of arriving at a well advanced fire with major structural damage with little likelihood of survivors and the no go decision is clear. The element of doubt that comes in is under the FDNY staffing and arrival times you may choose to go in where a smaller less staffed FD may decide to go defensive. Who is right? Both, if sound decision making processes were used.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #92
      And I don't understand those who insist an aggressive interior push has to be made at every single fire. How can that be the rule? How can that even make sense? Does size-up mean nothing? Are they not even doing a size-up? No sense in doing it if you don't act according to the information gathered.
      Those who insist the aggressive interior attack is necessary every time are either ignorant or full of you know what. I'd prefer it be the latter.

      Comment


      • #93
        actually one of the comments in question was not so much aggressive interior attack as the need for a primary search -in "abandoned " buildings
        ?

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
          actually one of the comments in question was not so much aggressive interior attack as the need for a primary search -in "abandoned " buildings
          And I still stand by that in most communities most of the time there is simply no need and no justification to enter abandoned structures. That is certainly the case in all of the three departments that I currently work or volunteer for. And it was the case in all of my previous departments. The likelihood of squatters was non-existent. The likelihood of kids being inside was almost null. I could not a still cannot justify the rissk to my members to perform a primary search in these buildings unless I have a solid reason to put them into that position.

          There are far too many unknowns that pose a a risk to my members, even for a small fire. At the time I made the comments there was simply no reason to enter abandoned structures unless somebody told that there IS somebody inside.

          And nothing has changed in what we are experiencing to change that.

          If you believe that you believe that you need to enter abandoned buildings in your community to make a search, fine, but if you believe that it should happen in all communities, all the time, you are wrong..

          If you want to say that I am not performing the job because of that position, have at it.
          Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-09-2016, 02:52 PM.
          Train to fight the fires you fight.

          Comment


          • #95
            I'm not going to battle again on that point. But I will say knowing your area plays a part. My bet is the probability of squatters in an urban area or an economically down turned area is higher than in rural or more economically well off areas.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
              I'm not going to battle again on that point. But I will say knowing your area plays a part. My bet is the probability of squatters in an urban area or an economically down turned area is higher than in rural or more economically well off areas.
              Exactly, and in none of the areas in which I have worked or volunteered, had squatting in abandoned or vacant buildings been an issue, so there was no need to put members at risk, which was my point years ago when this was a heated discussion.

              Like you, I would likely handle the same discussion with the fools on this site differently now.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #97
                fools ? finally take some testosterone shots buddy? good for you -maybe you can finally grow you a pair.
                ?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                  Exactly, and in none of the areas in which I have worked or volunteered, had squatting in abandoned or vacant buildings been an issue, so there was no need to put members at risk, which was my point years ago when this was a heated discussion.

                  Like you, I would likely handle the same discussion with the fools on this site differently now.
                  Once again you miss the point. The point is that you claim to bear the mantle of being a fire department or firefighter whose task is protecting the public. Be honest with the citizens you claim to serve who might believe that you are there protecting them.

                  You repeatedly stated that you wouldn't even attempt to save someone from a burning vehicle if you were off duty. Something many of us have done without our safety gear available.

                  Just don't make the claim that your ideas of firefighting should be the norm. Yes you have an obligation to ensure your crew's safety. But your statements are one of being over cautious to the point of being ineffective. I worked for three decades as a company officer. Rarely did I have all the proper resources and manpower that you demand be in place to mount a proper attack that would be considered a textbook operation.
                  They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                  I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                    Once again you miss the point. The point is that you claim to bear the mantle of being a fire department or firefighter whose task is protecting the public. Be honest with the citizens you claim to serve who might believe that you are there protecting them.

                    You repeatedly stated that you wouldn't even attempt to save someone from a burning vehicle if you were off duty. Something many of us have done without our safety gear available.

                    Just don't make the claim that your ideas of firefighting should be the norm. Yes you have an obligation to ensure your crew's safety. But your statements are one of being over cautious to the point of being ineffective. I worked for three decades as a company officer. Rarely did I have all the proper resources and manpower that you demand be in place to mount a proper attack that would be considered a textbook operation.
                    I'm not going to relive the past.

                    My primary job is to get my crew home and that will drive my decision-making process. At the end of the day, the reality is that for most fire departments fires where civilian life is at stake is a very, very, very rare event. In fact, in 37 years, I can say that only twice have I encountered that situation, and only once was it as an officer faced with making that decision. Not once was it at an abandoned or vacant structure.

                    How you ran your company is your business. And when I'm in charge of a company or a scene, that's my business. And rarely do I have all the resources that I would like as well. That being said, When there has been a situation where there has been a reasonable chance of changing the outcome, I have taken risks that were commensurate with the potential gains.

                    I will not relitigate the "vehicle fire discussion", except to say that when off-duty and without the workman comp protections associated with an on-duty response, it is up to each man to make a decision as to whether it's prudent to act and risk the safety of his family.
                    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-10-2016, 04:39 PM.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

                    Comment


                    • SCFire, the broken record old man who has no recent interesting things to discuss goes back to the days of the dinosaurs to drag up long dead schitt to make himself sound cool. YAWN...
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • When you have little interesting to say in the present, often all you have is the past.
                        Train to fight the fires you fight.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                          When you have little interesting to say in the present, often all you have is the past.
                          I'm retired. I have no doubt I fought more fire than you saw on TV. If you had worked for me, you wouldn't have worked for me.

                          My crews looked for ways to do the job, not avoid it.
                          They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                          I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by scfire86 View Post

                            I'm retired. I have no doubt I fought more fire than you saw on TV. If you had worked for me, you wouldn't have worked for me.

                            My crews looked for ways to do the job, not avoid it.
                            I always find what you say quite amusing. It does make me chuckle.
                            Train to fight the fires you fight.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                              I always find what you say quite amusing. It does make me chuckle.
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                                I always find what you say quite amusing. It does make me chuckle.
                                Your comments make me laugh out loud.

                                We both know its true.
                                They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                                I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                                Comment

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