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High Rise Packs/Hose

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  • captstanm1
    replied
    I believe if you check the report, the problems from 1 Meridian in Philly stemmed from installation problems. Even if they had been using 2" hose there was no pressure on the system due to a pressure reducing valve in the basement being set too low.

    Leave a comment:


  • captstanm1
    replied
    15' of 3" lightweight hose
    2.5" to 1.5" gated wye (TFT with gauge on it)
    TFT Mid-Force (Dual Pressure nozzle) or
    The TFT ball valve with the 15/16" insert and a Metro Tip only
    2 75' sections of Neidner Double Jacketed Synthetic Lightweight hose.
    Spanner wrench

    Neidner is about 1/3 less weight than the traditional hose

    Put it together with clemens high rise pack

    The Mid-Force in the low pressure setting will deliver 200 GPM @ 75PSI NP and has an effective straight stream that is equivalent to a 15/16" SB tip.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike C
    replied
    5 psi son

    THAT IS DEAD ON ADVICE FOR 95 GPM.

    That same book says double flow quadruple the Friction Loss. Of course low bid small water way valves change that a tad.

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    replied
    I never gave the FL in a wye much thought - "son, just add 5psi for the appliance" is what we were taught and just accepted.

    So much for the rule of thumb for appliances...

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike C
    replied
    off the standpipe.

    With a 1" to 1 1/4" waterway on the valve:

    150 gpm divided 29.71 or 36.91 = x itself = 17 or 25 psi

    200 divided by the same = 29 or 44 psi needed to get 150 psi through the valve.

    Try a full flow 2 1/2" wye with a reducer on it at the same pressure you'll feel and measure the difference the difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • theboxalarm
    replied
    TRUCKIE 306 says
    every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you.
    True words spoken in this paragraph!

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    replied
    Mike C

    Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm.

    No s$%t?!

    30 to 50psi?

    Is that straight off the standpipe or with a section of 2.5" form the pipe to the wye?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike C
    replied
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with using 1 3/4" hose and fog nozzles for high rise packs if you follow one of the national model building codes. In fact, 1 1/2" is perfect.

    If you aren't then you best be using 2 1/2" and a SB tip only.

    Hose in either kit should be purchased for burst resistance, heat resistance, kink resistance first, then flow, then drag resistance, then weight. If not done in that order you will be in for a nasty surprise one day.

    Anything larger than 2" hose for high rise in a compliant building is silly.

    Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm. Not a good thing on non-compliant systems. COmpliant systems should consider adding a elbow relief valve to the highrise bundle to protect the second line on the wye from water hammer and line shutdowns, plus pressure pump kick ins.

    On compliant systems make sure you no the override pressure of the building pumps or tanks before you supply them, or your water will go no where.

    Standpipe system loss should not be figured by the DO, it should be demonstrated each year by the FD on site, anything less is irresponsible!

    The attack line whether on a 100 story or a 5 story building needs to match the system performance, there is no one size fits all.

    Hose length of the pack should match the code as well, 200 feet is 100 feet to long with the UBC/UFC code.

    If you are following a model code your fire truck is in fact on the fire floor, pumping the system is optional in many cases.

    Carry all of this???
    Hose in bundles of 50'. More lighter weight bundles so that each member can carry a length and split the work. The bundles or horseshoe loads can also be carried allowing a free hand to carry tools etc.
    -NOZZLE: Smooth Bore or LOW PRESSURE combination nozzle. Break apart style, consider twist shut off combination heads for use if a line is to be extended.
    -A bag with...
    -Adapters [NST to pipe, double male and female, 30 degree elbow, CAPS, etc]
    -Wire brush [takes rust and scaling corrosion from threads]
    -Pipe wrench [18" or so...add a piece of pipe as a breaker bar and keep it in the bag to slide over the handle of the wrench
    -Mallet
    -Small pry bar
    -Vise Grips
    -Door wedges
    -Tire tubes cut into bands
    -Spanner wrenches
    -Combination nozzle tip
    -Hose straps
    -Utility rope (small)
    -elevator keys
    -BIG colored chalk [search marking on doors]
    -Plastic door search markers

    Nah, follow the code, ordinances and let the law take care of it, the code is quite specific. If you are not following codes then maybe you shouldn't be going up in the building.

    A World Trade center via UBC would have 2 feet of concrete on each beam not a spray on coating. You get the level of protection you adopt.

    Leave a comment:


  • truckie306
    replied
    2 1/2 versus 1 3/4 high rise pack

    every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you. consider your manpower and other resources. my department runs 4 engines,1 ladder,1 rescue ,1 command vehicle . off duty members are called in for additional truck and engine, plus there is mutual aide. minimum is officer and 2 f/f's per company,except rescue is 1 and 1. certain factions of the department have convinced those in decision making positions that the 2 1/2 high rise pack should be used in your class 1 standpipe. a very large number of us tat do the work disagree. it is taking more time to get the line in service,is more difficult to manuever in an apartment,and with the 2nd due engine helping stretch the first line, 3rd due on water supply outside,there is no backup line anywhere in the near future coming. there is so much concern for f/f safety, they say the 2 1/2 with s/b nozzle will give you the flow and thats safe. others say that firs company with 3 men take 1 3/4 line s/b nozzle,get it in service quicker and hence water flowing faster. then let the officer do his job and make the call for a 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 back-up line. we are a small 100 man department running 6000 calls plus a year and medical runs. we are not staffed 5 man engines and trucks, and there is not 20 engines on additional alarms . thtas why i say, you must consider your department for your procedures, not what big city deartments say

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    Originally posted by M G:
    Does anyone remember...
    Philadelphia, 1 Meridian Plaza

    As I recall, an issue that came to light was the use of inadequate standpipe hose packs and appliances.
    I seem to recall that was one of the problems also.

    Originally posted by M G:
    Using 1.5" hose for standpipes is LUDICROUS. That is one thing I will say with affirmation.
    While I agree that in a traditional "high rise" situation, the more the better is the way to go, but, there are other ways to use packs like that. One of the areas covered by my dept. is a state college. They have a number of dorms that are either 2 or 3 stories with standpipes every 100 feet. Half the time the hose is missing (great to be the state and not have to follow the fire code) or damaged, so we bring a pack to supply our own hose. It's not a traditional use of a "high rise pack," but it does the job for us.

    Were we faced with buildings like Meridian Plaza or numbers of 15 to 20 story apartments in Camden County, I would certainly expect our "high rise" gear to be different.

    Leave a comment:


  • M G
    replied
    Does anyone remember...
    Philadelphia, 1 Meridian Plaza

    As I recall, an issue that came to light was the use of inadequate standpipe hose packs and appliances.

    Here is my opinion...

    You are advancing into this high rise or commercial occupancy with something like 3 bundles of hose and assorted appliances. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is a one shot deal. Your transit time to the fire area can be significant, your manpower limited. You cannot park your pumper on the fire floor. That said....can anyone tell me how it doesnt make sense to bring 2.5 inch hose and a low pressure nozzle capable of a high flow with you? It seems simple to me. Bring hose that will let the water flow and a nozzle that will operate at low pressures. If not, arent you risking playing catchup...can you risk that? Standpipes are notorious for some of the following problems:
    -Broken handwheels
    -Low Pressures
    -Mismatched Threads
    -Presure limiting valves
    -Garbage in pipes
    -Corrosion
    The list goes on. You have alot more variables here because unless you have a good inspection record and proactive codes and attention by fire officials, you are taking a gamble. The gentleman who stated taking anything less than certain items is irresponsible...I disagree with your terminology. You prefer the smoothbore, so do I. The important issue, however, is to have a low pressure nozzle. The advantage a smooth bore affords is that chunks of crap that may present themselves through antiquated piping systems are more likely to flow through as opposed to being caught in a combination nozzle. So personally, I cannot see using anything less than 2.5" hose, but convincing firefighters of this is a whole issue unto itself. The FDNY uses a 1 1/8 tip, this provides [email protected] I think its no harm to step up to 1 1/4 to get [email protected] Another interesting option is to have stacked tips, [1"-1 1/8"-1 1/4"]. You should have hardware and appliances to allow access to systems that might be in disrepair. Using 1.5" hose for standpipes is LUDICROUS. That is one thing I will say with affirmation.

    Consider carrying (not necessarily all of it...but some ideas!):
    -Hose in bundles of 50'. More lighter weight bundles so that each member can carry a length and split the work. The bundles or horseshoe loads can also be carried allowing a free hand to carry tools etc.
    -NOZZLE: Smooth Bore or LOW PRESSURE combination nozzle. Break apart style, consider twist shut off combination heads for use if a line is to be extended.
    -A bag with...
    -Adapters [NST to pipe, double male and female, 30 degree elbow, CAPS, etc]
    -Wire brush [takes rust and scaling corrosion from threads]
    -Pipe wrench [18" or so...add a piece of pipe as a breaker bar and keep it in the bag to slide over the handle of the wrench
    -Mallet
    -Small pry bar
    -Vise Grips
    -Door wedges
    -Tire tubes cut into bands
    -Spanner wrenches
    -Combination nozzle tip
    -Hose straps
    -Utility rope (small)
    -elevator keys
    -BIG colored chalk [search marking on doors]
    -Plastic door search markers

    Hope this helps. Try looking on "FIRE ENGINEERING" Magazine for good articles on standpipe packs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike DeVuono
    replied
    Ahhh..nevermind...I think I got it figured out now...

    Tend to forget "textbook" definitions ya know. When I hear donut roll I think of what we all refer to a donut roll but is really a "service" roll.

    [ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Mike DeVuono ]

    [ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Mike DeVuono ]

    Leave a comment:


  • trumpeter75
    replied
    Well, I have to admit to my department being somewhat backwards in the hi-rise business. We have relatively little experience in actual fires in a multi-story building, so I guess we just kept the same size packs we always had. Yes, I define a donut roll the same way everyone else does. We've always deployed them by coupling to the standpipe, holding on to the nob, and dropping the roll down the hole in the stairwell and let gravity do the rest.

    YES I know this may seem assinine, but believe it or not there are some of us who are trying to improve our procedures. That's one reason I participate in forums--to get ideas. Putting them into practice in the face of dug-in tradition is another story.

    To be fair, this hi-rise novice has learned a LOT from this forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grit
    replied
    Length: take into account that codes now allow 200' hose reach from the NEAREST hose valve. Think about it.

    Size: Why not carry 2 packs. One with 1 3/4 for compartmented bldgs like hotels & apts. And a 2 1/2 for open plan office bldgs.

    I look funny at anyone who says one size fits all.

    And don't forget to take into account what the smallest girl can carry to the top floor of your tallest building. Don't need any law suits. Hehehe.......

    Leave a comment:


  • FP&LS Guy
    replied
    In answer to the deployment of a donut roll ... it is easier to deploy a donut roll than to deploy out of a high-rise pack. A donut roll (unless trumpeter75 uses a different definition) leaves both couplings outside the rool. By rolling the donut roll down the stairs, you end up with a loop. A double donut roll is half the diameter by making two rolls side by side. Same thing though, you have both couplings at the same location on the outside of the roll. This also works great for bumper lines and extra lengths kept in a compartment.

    In my experience with packaged hoselines, I have found that departments are creating "high-rise packs", but the highest building they are protecting may only be 4 or 5 stories high. So they are only packing hose, a nozzle, and an adapter.

    As to the debate on 1 3/4 vs 2 1/2 inch hose, I think a department has to make a determination based on how many people will be on the line, what the typical pressure in the system will be, and the distance you must cover with the handline. I have always been a proponent of getting to the location faster and getting water on the fire sooner. I would also rather have two 1 3/4 lines with two firefighters per line on a fire vs one 2 1/2 inch line with 4 firefighters on the line. For speed and weight, I know of several agencies that use lightweight 1 1/2 inch line with a TFT switchable nozzle, designed to operate at regular and low pressures.

    If you do use 2 1/2 inch hose in your packs, you might want to break the packs down into multiple packs of 100-150 feet each to decrease individual weight.

    Oh, and get on that Stairmaster, because you know the damn elevator will be out that day.
    (Yes, I know, 2 floors below the alarm floor)

    Leave a comment:

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