High Rise Packs/Hose

[nonameFF]

Originally posted by M G:
Does anyone remember...
Philadelphia, 1 Meridian Plaza

As I recall, an issue that came to light was the use of inadequate standpipe hose packs and appliances.

I seem to recall that was one of the problems also.

Originally posted by M G:
Using 1.5" hose for standpipes is LUDICROUS. That is one thing I will say with affirmation.

While I agree that in a traditional "high rise" situation, the more the better is the way to go, but, there are other ways to use packs like that. One of the areas covered by my dept. is a state college. They have a number of dorms that are either 2 or 3 stories with standpipes every 100 feet. Half the time the hose is missing (great to be the state and not have to follow the fire code) or damaged, so we bring a pack to supply our own hose. It's not a traditional use of a "high rise pack," but it does the job for us.

Were we faced with buildings like Meridian Plaza or numbers of 15 to 20 story apartments in Camden County, I would certainly expect our "high rise" gear to be different.

[truckie306]

2 1/2 versus 1 3/4 high rise pack

every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you. consider your manpower and other resources. my department runs 4 engines,1 ladder,1 rescue ,1 command vehicle . off duty members are called in for additional truck and engine, plus there is mutual aide. minimum is officer and 2 f/f's per company,except rescue is 1 and 1. certain factions of the department have convinced those in decision making positions that the 2 1/2 high rise pack should be used in your class 1 standpipe. a very large number of us tat do the work disagree. it is taking more time to get the line in service,is more difficult to manuever in an apartment,and with the 2nd due engine helping stretch the first line, 3rd due on water supply outside,there is no backup line anywhere in the near future coming. there is so much concern for f/f safety, they say the 2 1/2 with s/b nozzle will give you the flow and thats safe. others say that firs company with 3 men take 1 3/4 line s/b nozzle,get it in service quicker and hence water flowing faster. then let the officer do his job and make the call for a 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 back-up line. we are a small 100 man department running 6000 calls plus a year and medical runs. we are not staffed 5 man engines and trucks, and there is not 20 engines on additional alarms . thtas why i say, you must consider your department for your procedures, not what big city deartments say

[Mike C]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using 1 3/4" hose and fog nozzles for high rise packs if you follow one of the national model building codes. In fact, 1 1/2" is perfect.

If you aren't then you best be using 2 1/2" and a SB tip only.

Hose in either kit should be purchased for burst resistance, heat resistance, kink resistance first, then flow, then drag resistance, then weight. If not done in that order you will be in for a nasty surprise one day.

Anything larger than 2" hose for high rise in a compliant building is silly.

Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm. Not a good thing on non-compliant systems. COmpliant systems should consider adding a elbow relief valve to the highrise bundle to protect the second line on the wye from water hammer and line shutdowns, plus pressure pump kick ins.

On compliant systems make sure you no the override pressure of the building pumps or tanks before you supply them, or your water will go no where.

Standpipe system loss should not be figured by the DO, it should be demonstrated each year by the FD on site, anything less is irresponsible!

The attack line whether on a 100 story or a 5 story building needs to match the system performance, there is no one size fits all.

Hose length of the pack should match the code as well, 200 feet is 100 feet to long with the UBC/UFC code.

If you are following a model code your fire truck is in fact on the fire floor, pumping the system is optional in many cases.

Carry all of this???
Hose in bundles of 50'. More lighter weight bundles so that each member can carry a length and split the work. The bundles or horseshoe loads can also be carried allowing a free hand to carry tools etc.
-NOZZLE: Smooth Bore or LOW PRESSURE combination nozzle. Break apart style, consider twist shut off combination heads for use if a line is to be extended.
-A bag with...
-Adapters [NST to pipe, double male and female, 30 degree elbow, CAPS, etc]
-Wire brush [takes rust and scaling corrosion from threads]
-Pipe wrench [18" or so...add a piece of pipe as a breaker bar and keep it in the bag to slide over the handle of the wrench
-Mallet
-Small pry bar
-Vise Grips
-Door wedges
-Tire tubes cut into bands
-Spanner wrenches
-Combination nozzle tip
-Hose straps
-Utility rope (small)
-elevator keys
-BIG colored chalk [search marking on doors]
-Plastic door search markers

Nah, follow the code, ordinances and let the law take care of it, the code is quite specific. If you are not following codes then maybe you shouldn't be going up in the building.

A World Trade center via UBC would have 2 feet of concrete on each beam not a spray on coating. You get the level of protection you adopt.

[mongofire_99]

Mike C

Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm.

No s$%t?!

30 to 50psi?

Is that straight off the standpipe or with a section of 2.5" form the pipe to the wye?

[JayTL]

TRUCKIE 306 says

every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you.

True words spoken in this paragraph!

[Mike C]

off the standpipe.

With a 1" to 1 1/4" waterway on the valve:

150 gpm divided 29.71 or 36.91 = x itself = 17 or 25 psi

200 divided by the same = 29 or 44 psi needed to get 150 psi through the valve.

Try a full flow 2 1/2" wye with a reducer on it at the same pressure you'll feel and measure the difference the difference.

[mongofire_99]

I never gave the FL in a wye much thought - "son, just add 5psi for the appliance" is what we were taught and just accepted.

So much for the rule of thumb for appliances...

[Mike C]

5 psi son

THAT IS DEAD ON ADVICE FOR 95 GPM.

That same book says double flow quadruple the Friction Loss. Of course low bid small water way valves change that a tad.

[distchief60b]

15' of 3" lightweight hose
2.5" to 1.5" gated wye (TFT with gauge on it)
TFT Mid-Force (Dual Pressure nozzle) or
The TFT ball valve with the 15/16" insert and a Metro Tip only
2 75' sections of Neidner Double Jacketed Synthetic Lightweight hose.
Spanner wrench

Neidner is about 1/3 less weight than the traditional hose

Put it together with clemens high rise pack

The Mid-Force in the low pressure setting will deliver 200 GPM @ 75PSI NP and has an effective straight stream that is equivalent to a 15/16" SB tip.

[distchief60b]

I believe if you check the report, the problems from 1 Meridian in Philly stemmed from installation problems. Even if they had been using 2" hose there was no pressure on the system due to a pressure reducing valve in the basement being set too low.