Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

5.5 Billion for Farmers 100 Mill for Firefighters

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    HC:

    A couple of observations I've made...

    It's really totally irrelevant if Bush's figures were off, because the reasoning is the federal government shouldn't be funding these types of programs on Constitutional grounds.

    I'm also getting the drift that you're somewhat in agreement that local money (our tax money) shouldn't be dished out to support a local issue across the country, BUT you're willing to put up with it because your local community my get some of it. That reasoning only perpetuates the problem. Just because the government holds a carrot in front of some of us (the FIRE Act) doesn't mean we should let them continue to take the whole farm for other things (that's where we're coming with the "buying your vote" statements).

    And that, to me, is the biggest problem with a majority of Americans. They will willingly, peacefully allow the Constitution to be abused and rewritten, just so a single issue that they like can move forward. Trust me, all of those little things that we let slide by will eventually add up one day, and you'll be able to "sleep at night, face myself in the mirror in the morning, and genuinely say I like myself" in a country that's more Socialist than a Republic.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

    Comment


    • #62
      HC -

      Cripes, this IS going around in circles. You're right. But I can't leave it alone. It's like an itch I have to keep scratching.

      You said, "And I said the same damn thing...except that I said it does help everyone...who applies for the money anyway. Just like the Fire Act..if you don't apply you won't be eligible...what is the difference of us giving out money to small businesses in West Podunck Alabama, or their police station? Do they deserve the money more than the Fire Service? No."

      EXAAAAACTLY! Now you're cooking with gas. The truth is, NONE of these services or subsidies "deserve" or are authorized by the Constitution to be funded with federal tax money. Oops, there's that inconvenient Constitution again. So we DO agree here...sort of...So if you think that neither the cops nor the firefighters nor the small business owners of West Podunk are entitled to federal tax money from other places, why do you think the President is wrong for speaking out against the constitutionality of the FIRE Act?

      Next, "How fair is it that we are paying for their police protection, or ma and pa's country antique store...or some wasteland out there that has some breed of bird that is endangered living on that land?"

      AMEN, SISTER!!! TESTIFY!!! Now you're getting it. It's not fair at all. It's not fair for my community to have to pay for anyone else's police, fire, or "endangered" species protection. AND, as an added bonus, it's unconstitutional to boot!

      Next, you said, "It is not a tough concept...but you are not understanding me or what I am saying. Remember that whole thing about seeing the truth? Well the truth is that we pay for lots of stuff that don't affect us...do you pay taxes that help to pay for your police protection? Well you pay it twice cause police departments all over the country gets thousands yearly from the government funding programs that have been established for them. I would much rather see that money divided between all the Emergency Services than just going to one division of it."

      Awww, damn. I thought we were onto something here for a minute. Know what *I* would much rather see? Local services paid for with local money. Not a tough concept there either, huh? You pay for what you use, not for what West Podunk uses. Those West Podunkers can take care of themselves. They're hearty folk out there in West Podunk.

      Next, you said, "Hey great...lucky you. Our community does not. We had to beg the township, and then hire a consultant to come in and write a report to the townships this year to get us a measly $5000 more! How pathetic is that? I love fighting fires and I want to continue to do it, but I don't want to have to spend every Saturday doing car washes to afford to buy a set of gear that will protect my life. That makes no damn sense."

      Wellll, I wouldn't be too sure of that. Do you want to be a firefighter? Do you understand that the volunteer service sometimes has to do fundraising, even though we might hate it? OK. Now. Do the PEOPLE of your community know what the deal is with your funding situation? Are they familiar with any problems that you've had in providing adequate and reasonable response to incidents in their community (adequate and reasonable here being defined by the community itself, not the 8-alarm wackers who want to run lights and sirens to go get gas)? Are they familiar with any problems that you're having in keeping your firefighters safe? If they're not - your fault, so sorry. Bob the trash collector is busy next week. Guess you'll have to tell them yourselves.

      That is, if there even is a problem. Sometimes there is a very large gap between the perception and the reality. You may have a perfectly servicable pumper, with old but sturdy gear, a used but safe set of turnouts, and believe that you're somehow beggars. The question is - does your company have REAL, TANGIBLE and DOCUMENTED problems handling emergencies in your community that can be traced to underfunding? And remember, those problems have to be perceived as problems to your community. If the answer is no, even though your perception is that you're woefully underfunded, then you're very unlikely to get the voters to approve of upping your funding much. But if you do have those problems, you need to make them known, and not only in bitch sessions amongst yourselves. That way, the community can better decide on the level of fire protection IT wants, not what YOU want. Hell, we all know that if it was up to us, and we had unlimited budgets, the "wacker" factor would tinge all of our spending decisions. The community, who is paying for your services, should decide at what level it wants to be protected, not your chief, not your board of directors, not even you, my dear. The community, which is paying, decides. Period.

      Next, in the same vein you say, "We have gone numerous times, and they don't want to hear it. They feel the money is better spent on the school's new swimming pool, or the landscaping they did around the police station, etc. Is that my fault too? We are not asking for the biggest, best equipped equipment...just something that won't break down every month, that is safe, and that gets us to the call in a timely manner. And we do plenty of good public relations...we cover 27 miles of territory and probably have 1/4 of the budget of the next town over that covers 6 miles total and that includes their mutual aid. Is that our fault too? I mean what would you have us do..hold a gun to the townships head and make them give us more money? It just does not work that way. The next firehouse over is at least 5 miles away and do you think Joe Schmo will care if it is us or them that put out his house fire? Nope. He will probably bitch whether we arrive in 3 minutes or they arrive in 7 minutes. The community doesn't have a clue. We do annual open houses, and other public relations things to get them more involved but they would rather be golfing. That can't be my fault can it?"

      See the previous response above. Same deal applies. And it certainly can be your fault. If your annual open house consists of a few "Use smoke detectors" displays, a firehouse tour, and letting some kids dress up in your turnouts (in other words, giving the impression that eeeeeverything is just peachy here at the ol' fire company), then what good is it to secure more funding? You have to stop taking this argument to the politicians, if they're truly not listening, and take it to the people who VOTE for those politicians. A lot simpler to say than do, I know, but if it's important to you, you'll do it. If it's not, then prepare to go through the same things year after year, because you're obviously not making much of an impression on the politicos.

      Next, you said: "Not because of political bias. You mean to tell me that you really believe the fires are going down, and that deaths are going down too? Hello? They are building newer and bigger developments every day, and have you watched the news with all the fires out West, or seen all the deaths of fire fighters in the past few months? I have never seen so many acres go up in blazes before. The deaths of fire fighters are on an upswing this year and that is a fact. Look at the LODDs for this year alone."

      You're refusing to see the forest for the trees (no pun intended). The simple fact is that fires, fire deaths, and firefighter fatalities have all been trending downward over the last couple decades, at differing but still downward rates. You want to look at two years' worth of data and make sweeping conclusions. That's faulty logic. The fact that there are more buildings going up certainly increases the potential fire load, but the new alarm systems, sprinkler laws, and new technologies for building materials is making fires a less and less common occurrence, a little bit at a time.

      Look, I'm not a supporter of the cops getting federal funds either, but even the cops have a much better argument to make statistically than we do. What big city do you know of that has more fires than crimes on a yearly basis? It's just that simple, HC. And all the President is saying is what I've been trying to get across all along - LOCAL SERVICES SHOULD BE PAID FOR LOCALLY, WHERE THE FUNDS HAVE THE MOST IMPACT, HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LEAST RED TAPE, AND ARE LESS SUBJECT TO POLITICS AND THE WHIM OF BUREAUCRATS. Aaaah, back to that inconvenient little thingy the Constitution again!

      Next, you said, "Again what about the police protection for Jehosaphat, Arkansas? You are helping to pay for that."

      Yep, and I completely disagree with that too. You're preaching to the choir on that one. Get rid of all federal entitlement programs. Then we'll have a good start.

      "Really?! And the conservatives never INTERPRET anything right? PPPPUUULLEEEAASSEE! You are too much."

      I am, aren't I? Yep, you're right, conservatives do interpret things that are within their right and purview to interpret. The Constitution, for true conservatives (that's why they're called "conservatives") has never and will never be open to interpretation. Especially not by the likes of Hitlery Clinton-Rodham and Jesse "I do not take objection at getting an erection - but upon further reflection and penis inpection, I should have worn protection" Jackson.

      Finally, we have: "Not insulted at all. I just don't think anyone is completely liberal or conservative..everyone bends on some things. And when you use the word are you using it in a negative manner? That is how it comes across even if you don't mean it that way. Call me what you want...bleeding heart liberal, nazi feminist, bitch, or anything else. I won't knock you cause you voted for Bush, and I certainly don't disagree with everything he does or has done or probably will do. Can you say that you don't agree with everything he has done, will do, or probably will do? If you can say that you do agree with everything then can I call you a right wing jackass? It doesn't matter I wouldn't anyway. People are different and we are all entitled to our opinions. I am not a TOTAL liberal...just more liberal than you are."

      And that's all I'm saying, HC. It just seems like when I call you liberal, you go, "EWWWWW! Am not! Am not!!" Just my impression is all. And no, I don't agree with the President on everything. But we share a set of core values, and that's why I'm glad he's my President.

      See ya, HC. Start that PR campaign!!

      [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: BucksEng91 ]
      "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

      Joe Black

      The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

      Comment


      • #63
        Well it seems we do agree on more than we both initially thought.

        OK the feds shouldn't give us money, it is a local issue...my concern is that Bush has defended the funds to police but NOT fire services. Nothing to do with fairness...just BS. You can't have your cake and eat it too. All I am saying is either divy up the $$ or take it away and do something else with it. So wow, to my amazement we seem to agree it just took us a while to get there.


        And no our annual open house is not some "use smoke detector" thing. We have pleaded with residents to help us...many give us annual donations but they are so small and generally only cover the cost of fueling trucks, maintaining equipment, etc. And not buying new up to date equipment that functions properly. We recently had a building addition completed at $300K - lots of stuff in the old building had to be redone and the cost of building a new one would have been close to 700K so we did it the less expensive way - and some residents gave us small donations to help us fund this but $10K doesn't go far when you owe $300K. We are in the process of trying to buy new gear but those that get it are the ones that make 60% of calls or more, etc. I am luckily one of them and will get new gear by the end of this year, but other members that cannot run as many calls because of family commitments, work, etc. will have to do with gear that is not completely safe. As for trucks..well our one pumper that carries our extracation tools and lots of hose is about 24 years old...and the actual frame of the truck is now rusting away and falling apart. Plus it is very very slow..I could run to a call faster than that thing gets there...and I am almost not exaggerating. :-)

        Yes I agree that fund raising is part of the jolly volly world, but not weekly fund raisers, or so many that other things like fire training take a back seat to fund raising. I am sure you agree with that. I probably do sound like I am bitching, but I have been on the losing end of this issue for years now and have had enough. I could join the next town over with 6 miles of territory and a million sitting in the bank...but I choose to stay at my department, work hard, and make do with what we have...even if many times we do without. So I guess I shouldn't complain since I made that choice...but I grew up there and my family lives there and that means something to me. I am proud of my commitment to this town. So anyway, thanks for taking the time to chat away with me today and to keep putting your views in front of me..like I said we are not that far off even though I am more liberal than you are on some issues. And I would never vote for George W. Bush.
        Take care.
        Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

        Comment


        • #64
          HC -

          High five!

          Listen, if things really are that tough, then you (meaning your department) need to start "playing dirty" - terrible term for it, but that's the first thing that came to mind.

          What I mean by that is you need to start actively campaigning against the people on your board of commissioners, or supervisors, or township council, whatever you call it, by calling attention to their failure to support adequate fire protection in your community. Be prepared to have real numbers, real statistics, and be ready to back them up with reasoned, rational arguments. When they come up for reelection, you could really use that election as a referendum on the level of fire protection desired by your community. If the people of your community don't want to pay any more than they are currently paying, or if they don't agree to shift local spending priorities to more fire protection, then they'll vote these people back in. If your campaign convinces enough people, and the community does decide that it needs a higher level of protection, they'll vote the bums out.

          Again, as I said, it's not simple, but it's quintessentially American and right and proper. This is the way things were always supposed to be, before we became anesthetized by TV and comfortable middle class living.

          One last thing - uhh, who WOULD you vote for if not GWB? Please tell me you didn't vote for Algore, that pandering, lying, underhanded assh*le of a robot.
          "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

          Joe Black

          The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

          Comment


          • #65
            Can I get an AMEN?!

            Can we score one for reason?

            Keep reading what Mongo and Bucks have to say, HC, and you'll be a card-carrying conservative before you know it.

            Hey, on the subject of volunteer funding….depending on who you ask, our little FD provides a higher level of service than the community wants (i.e. will cough up for) because our volunteers and a few community residents will put in their time and money to keep improving things. We'd don't have a fire tax, and aren't supported by any municipality. It's all donations, membership dues, and grants. Just from membership dues and STATE operational grants, we can pretty much guaruntee about $8500 a year. That's right, no typo---$8500 a YEAR. Check out our website (link in my profile). We did everything you see through local support, grants from private companies, and State funding.

            Point is, we've made a lot from nothing, as many a VFD does. It ain't perfect, and we've got a long way to go, but I'd rather bust my chops working on my off time with MY money and get something that we (the FD and the community) has built, than pay more taxes to the Fed and MAYBE get some back.
            Bryan Beall
            Silver City, Oklahoma USA

            Comment


            • #66
              Agreed that we need to "play dirty". I am glad we finally came to a conclusion of our lengthy although fascinating conversation.

              And no I didn't vote for Mr. Gore. While I agreed with some of his platforms, I didn't feel he was the BEST man for the job either. I did vote for Clinton...but hell the second time mainly for the comedic value he brought to the whitehouse....who else could have offered us so many Jerry Springeresque sideshows while in office? That might sound horrible, but I got a kick out of him and the things the media went after. Besides how pathetic is it that the nation focused in on his "oral" presentations more than anything else in the nation at that time. I think we could have had WWIII and people would have been more worried about whether the stain on Monica's dress came out. I didn't care if he screwed every member of the whitehouse staff as long as he did his job as President. Hey really, whether you like the guy as Pres or not he did some great stuff for this country and he was charming and more appealling to the younger generations like me. Maybe not all in all the best reasons to vote him in a second time, but honestly the other guys just scared me...because of Perot I suffered terrible nightmares about giant pie chart wielding chickens invading the earth. It was too scary.
              Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

              Comment


              • #67

                Buckseng91,
                I'm still laughing at that Jesse ... Jackson thing.

                And even you slipped. It's not the federal governments funds, it's OUR funds!!!

                Maybe hc is rubbing off on you? Say it aint so!!!

                [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: amfm ]

                [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: amfm ]

                [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: amfm ]

                Comment


                • #68
                  Bucks said:
                  EXAAAAACTLY! Now you're cooking with gas. The truth is, NONE of these services or subsidies "deserve" or are authorized by the Constitution to be funded with federal tax money. Oops, there's that inconvenient Constitution again. So we DO agree here...sort of...So if you think that neither the cops nor the firefighters nor the small business owners of West Podunk are entitled to federal tax money from other places, why do you think the President is wrong for speaking out against the constitutionality of the FIRE Act?

                  Too bad he didn't have the guts to stick to his guns and "Just Say No". Alan Keyes ran for President, too. No one knew who he was. He lost in the Primaries, big time. But he was one of the first to advocate abolishing some govt. departments in total. Starting w/HUD and HHS (both heavily behind welfare - the personal kind). And he's Black, no less.

                  Now for HC, here's a little story about a small town, small time VFD.

                  Way way back in 1970 (when my dad moved to the district) there was a vollie company in town, with 1 pumper. There was another vollie company in the next town up the road, about 40 miles away. They both covered their respective towns, on a subscription basis. Either one (usually whichever was closer) would cover the farmland in between, for the same subscription fee.

                  In 1977, that fee was $20/year. The two depts. combined, and their combined assets were 2 pumpers, 2 stations (one in a building donated by the town, the other in a building donated by a local private college that was in the other town) 6 "plectron" pagers and 2 Motorola handhelds. Their budget was $20,000 (about 1000 households paid the subscription fee).

                  At the time of the merger, the area was experiencing a huge influx of "urban flight" development. There were about 10,000 houses in the area, the majority of which were in the "unincorporated county" portions of the new "Fire Protection District", where there was NO STATION.

                  When they became an FPD, they switched to a "tax-base" funding model. The argument they used was that most people (see above) were not paying their share. We told them they'd pay a nominal millage, but everyone would pay their share, based on the value of their property. The first year's tax revenue was $120,000, an average of $12 per household per year.

                  In 1998, there were 122,000 houses and 6700 commercial businesses in that district. There were 140 light industrial plants and 3 that would be considered heavy industry. Total protected population of over 400,000 people. It's almost 50 miles long by 35 miles wide and actually covers about 1400 sq. miles. Oh, and there are now 2 (there were none) interstates that run through it.

                  There's 3 stations (the original two, plus one in the middle) but all three are in new 6 bay pull through stations.

                  They have 6 pumpers, 4 reserves, a tanker, two light and one heavy rescue, 3 regular and two reserve brush trucks. They run over 1500 calls per year, 2/3rds of which are EMS or MVAs.

                  And they never collect a dime from donations. Because they aren't allowed to, by law.

                  The trick was "how" do you do this. Here's what we did. We (at a time when there was 12 people on the newly combined dept.) rented several billboards on all the major roads through the district. They all said something to the effect of "you are protected by a volunteer fire dept. that desparately needs people - come volunteer your time to your community - training provided, no exp. nec."

                  Some people came and volunteered. But the other effect was that when the FPD came up for tax funding, everyone knew what it was for!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    amfm -

                    OOPS! Yeah, the semantics sometimes confuse me too! You're absolutely right - it's definitely our money, it always was our money, it still is our money, and it'll be our money when they **** it away on the Senator Blowhard Memorial Park out in Oklahoma somewhere.

                    Conshohocken, huh? Damn, I could practically throw a rock and hit you from here!

                    Were you on the Norristown job? My engine company got dispatched to do decon, but I wasn't in town...

                    Stay safe!
                    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                    Joe Black

                    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      hctrouble25

                      Agreed that we need to "play dirty".

                      I love to play dirty, wish the chief had the eggs...

                      Dear Mr. So and So,

                      CC: Councilman Jones

                      On behalf of the fire department I would like to welcome you to the beautiful city of OurPrioritiesAreScrewedUp.

                      As your fire chief, you should know that we do not have the necessary equipment to safely and effectively fight a fire in your residence (or place of business) and as such, all efforts will be made to keep your fire from extending to your neighbors.

                      We sincerely hope that you are well insured and if you'd like, one of our volunteers will be happy to come out on his or her own time and cover exit drills, the importance of smoke detectors and how to put 911 on your speed dial.

                      Should you like to change the current situation, Mr. Smith is running for Mr. Jones' seat on the city council next year and is a strong supporter of your safety.

                      Thanks and if you ever need us, all the free help in town is just a phone call and five minutes away.

                      Sincerely,

                      The people at the fire department.

                      And no I didn't vote for Mr. Gore.

                      Nader?

                      I think we could have had WWIII and people would have been more worried about whether the stain on Monica's dress came out.

                      Didn't he try to start WWIII to make us forget about that?

                      whether you like the guy as Pres or not he did some great stuff for this country

                      Like what?

                      RJE

                      Alan Keyes ran for President, too. No one knew who he was.

                      I voted for him in the primaries!

                      BucksEng91

                      I gotta ask...

                      What's so exciting about decon work?
                      It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Mongo-

                        As a Political Science major entering my senior year of college, I want to know why three years and $75,000 (plus books and fees) has not taught me to debate with your ability nor equipped me with the knowledge necessary to do so.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          CollegeBuff

                          If it's OK, I'll take that as a complment .

                          A few reasons....

                          debate with your ability

                          1. Old age and treachery beat youth and skill everytime.

                          2. I'm a stubborn nearly forty yo man working on becoming a stubborn old man.

                          3. Know your opponent. I've been on both sides of the political fence and I know what it took to get to me. I know my opponent. (I'm sorta dissappointed in myself this time out though - no time to present an effective arguement.)

                          nor equipped me with the knowledge necessary to do so.

                          First let me say I believe a college education is a good thing, that is why I'm still working on mine.

                          But...

                          After attending college (University of Texas-Arlington) off and on for the last twenty or so years, I have come to the conclusion that at least here, all they want you to know is what they want you to know, and they could care less if you know that, they got your money. Not necessarily what you want or need to know.

                          They tell you what and how much of it to read, what exacrtley to comment on and so forth.

                          If your not being challenged by your instructors, you need to challenge yourself or switch schools.

                          And study something you are passionate about, not just something for a degree.
                          It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Mongo -

                            Honestly? Decon work SUUUUUUUCKS.

                            But the Norristown fire was a large, infamous job in this area in the past 6 months (it was acually on TV round the country - the network newsies carried it...I saw it from my hotel room in Baltimore), and the Conshohocken guys were probably right in the middle of it, since they're pretty close to Norristown.

                            (Actually, I'm kind of glad that I was outta town when the tones dropped...we were dispatched at about 11 PM, and the guys, after about a 15 mile drive, spent the rest of the night and morning scrubbing and squirting... )
                            "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                            Joe Black

                            The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              CollegeBuff:

                              Look up the NEA's policies. Very liberal. Very "outcome based". Very weak in true "academic" skills.

                              Now ask yourself where they learned all this?

                              That's right! At the University.

                              For the last 40 years, higher education has gotten more and more liberal, and less and less "educational". The teaching schools were the first to go. Then they cranked out a new generation of teachers indoctrinated to their view. You'll have a hard time finding teachers at any level who HAVE a proper education (in the classical sense), much less teach one.

                              Your best bet for avoiding this dilemna is finding a school that still has "traditional values". I know it's trite, but that's the best term for them.

                              BTW, I'm also a 40-ish, and a college grad (BS & MS in computers, MBA, working on a Ph.D). I completed the last 2 years of my BS at Oral Roberts University. They spend more time teaching, and less "indoctrinating". Shop around, and spend your money wisely!

                              My 2¢

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Mongo

                                If your not being challenged by your instructors, you need to challenge yourself or switch schools.

                                Funny thing is, it's the Nader-ite prof that's my saving grace.....

                                And study something you are passionate about, not just something for a degree.

                                Political science major, at your service.

                                RJE

                                Your best bet for avoiding this dilemna is finding a school that still has "traditional values".

                                You'd think a Catholic college like this one would be just the place for it.

                                But it's also smack in the middle of the People's Republic of Taxachusetts. Cases in point- our biggest major is Social Rehab, and we're soon to have two buildings named after Kennedys (wait... I think it's the same guy for both..... : .

                                Throw in a liberal student body who have been given way too much voice in school policy (asking for more bike racks is one thing. Holding rallys in support of students expelled for brawling and witness intimidation is another) and you get campus culture that doesn't quite know what to do with itself.

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Leader

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X