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  • #46
    Man do you people need some hobbies....you read way too much into everything. I was not associating Satan with republicans. I was simply making a point that if Hitler, Satan, your grandmother, or anyone else ran on the republican ticket that that is who my dad would vote for. Jeez, chill out!

    As for the family planning cutting, I will have to check that out tomorrow for you when I have time. I do not believe it was hearsay at all...but you never know.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

    Comment


    • #47
      Thanks, HC. I appreciate it. I'd be interested to know if it's true.

      Now the real question - if it turns out to be just one more example of liberal spin, will it cause you to change your opinion? Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but I'd like to know that people are reachable with the truth; that when someone is confronted with the truth that they can accept it.

      I don't mean you in particular; I mean people in general. Otherwise, there's little hope for the future of this country.

      And hey, don't be modest! That was a beautiful spin job you did! Not really original (the New York Times manages to do it every day!) or subtle, but refreshing in its boldness.

      Anyhow, if you can find that link, I'd appreciate it. See ya!
      "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

      Joe Black

      The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

      Comment


      • #48
        Hey, Bucks, that whole Satan = Republican thing was probably unintentional. With all the propaganda the liberals put out, it's probably a result of some subliminal PR compaign. Of course, those of us who know the truth are immune to such things...

        And HC...I'm afraid that this IS one of our hobbies. That's why we like it so much.
        Bryan Beall
        Silver City, Oklahoma USA

        Comment


        • #49
          hctrouble

          I read a statement in USA Today from one of Bush's people that stated these organizations were using their funds to promote abortion. Of course this is not the case...

          I seem to recall that and it was the case. Just because they also talk about the other stuff and give out free BC doesn't mean squat.

          WE need MORE of these programs NOT LESS.

          If this supposedly works to reduce all that crap liberals love, how come they say it won't work with guns?

          But yes if a person asks about abortion they will also give them information on this.

          Oops. Since it began in 1970, the Title X statute has prohibited use of the program's funds for abortion as a method of family planning and they weren't even supposed to discuss it. This "gag rule" was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in '91. Whether asked or not, they could not use the dough to promote/discuss.mention abortion.

          If you'll recall, there was an investigation on this and found that they were in fact using Title X money to promote abortion.

          And as you said, that is where Bush's basis for taking away money came from.

          All the clinic has to do is follow the law and they got their money. Which by the way is unConstitutional, not that it matters to those that want to take more of our money and give it to someone else.

          Man do you people need some hobbies....

          Stuff associated with the job, history, politics, religion, debate... All the things going on here are my hobbies.

          BucksEng91

          Now the real question - if it turns out to be just one more example of liberal spin, will it cause you to change your opinion?

          Speaking as a recovering liberal...

          It will plant one more seed of doubt, but it takes an extreme amount of soul searching to see and admit that all the things one thinks are true are really just shadows on the wall.

          ...but I'd like to know that people are reachable with the truth; that when someone is confronted with the truth that they can accept it.

          Hey, DaySleeper47 is a great example that they are!

          I have to admit though, it would seem that those that are still believers in the socialist party after the last eight years are either an enigma or true believers.

          don't be modest! That was a beautiful spin job you did! Not really original

          Come on Bucks that hitler, satan grandma thing was slick and you let it slide right by.

          I'm kidding, I know she didn't mean grandma was a cross of those two.

          Silver City 4

          Of course, those of us who know the truth are immune to such things...

          Right-O
          It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

          Comment


          • #50
            Here's something interesting!

            Acording to Margret Sangers legacy organization (look it up), money forcibly confiscated from the hard working Americans of this country "accounts for 25 percent of the revenue of agencies receiving Title X funds (AGI, 2000)."
            It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

            Comment


            • #51
              Mongo,

              Hey we all have a bad day on these forums don't we? Sorry if you didn't appreciate my joke. It was rather lame looking back on it now. I would just like to see a politician stand behind the fire service 100%. Apparently that is a lot to ask. Clinton did some good things for this country and some bad. Just like Bush will. Hey no one's perfect. Last I checked anyway.

              Stay safe out there
              Tom

              Never Forget 9-11-2001

              Stay safe out there!

              IACOJ Member

              Comment


              • #52
                I would just like to see a politician stand behind the fire service 100%.

                So would I amigo, so would I.

                And you know, come to think of it I'd like to see a fire chief stand behind the fire service 100%...
                It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Thanks Mongo...I am still trying to find that dang article I read.

                  And as far as them using the money to promote abortion..from what I have seen many of them don't. The clinics that provide abortions give the literature to these organizations for family planning and their staff simply pass this on to those who request the information. I only know of this because a good friend of mine worked for the state in one their family planning/crisis intervention for families unit. I asked her about what they did there once because she would go to court at night once a week and I was unclear as to what she did for the office. She explained that they provide counseling, birth control, information, etc. on pregnancy, family issues, abortion (only when asked), and also provided safe havens for women and families of abuse, and that she would represent these women in court and discuss the trauma they had endured, etc. Sort of like a representative for the woman. Many of the women were to afraid to go face their abusers in court.

                  So while I understand Bush's stance on this I think he did not investigate the true nature of these organizations. Same as what he did for the FIRE Act...I don't want to start an argument...but from a press release from President Bush's Office "President Bush is proud of the mission, efforts and successes of our nation's firefighters. This is a question that defines the appropriate role of the federal government. Deaths and injuries from fires have generally been declining in recent years because of the successful performance of fire departments around the country as well as improvements in building codes and product safety. Furthermore, firefighter fatalities have fallen by 24 percent between 1989 and 1999. Firefighting is largely a local government responsibility in this country and establishing a permanent new program of federal grants to local fire departments has not been justified."

                  Actual facts taken from www.firehouse.com:
                  "In 2000, 95 firefighters died in the line of duty. As of March 5, 2001, 20 firefighters have been listed as Line of Duty Deaths. According to a report by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), 112 on-duty firefighter fatalities occurred in 1999, marking the highest annual US firefighter death toll since 1989 (118). The report cites an increase of 21 deaths from 1998.”

                  It seems that Pres. Bush and his people have not thoroughly investigated several things. Now, I know Billy Boy was not perfect either....but he is not in office right now, and so I won't go there. If it was Bill doing this right now I would be just as aggravated with him. I just feel like the government takes a lot more for granted than we would like them to. The family planning organizations are a good thing...and provided some great services and preach about the right things..abstinence, birth control, adoption, etc.

                  The Fire Service could use grant money just as badly as any farmer, police officer, small business owner, etc. Hell most of those people DON'T have to match monies...they just get the damn grants and move on. That is what annoys me. It is about time the Fire Service got some money out of the deal..and not just 100 Million to shut us up for the year.

                  While I agree that this is a local issue more than a federal one...I still feel that local governments can't always afford to buy the type and amount of equipment that we need. And no this does not mean a $400K truck with all the fancy bells and whistles. You can do just as much with a $150K stripped down version..but many municipalities can't even afford this along with all the other money they have to pay out.

                  Thanks for hearing me out.
                  Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Hey there HC -

                    It doesn't surprise me that you can't find the article (if I doubted your sincerity any more, I'd probably say "How convenient", but I'll reserve judgement there). Not having any source material doesn't seem to have changed your mind much. Aaaah, to be a liberal again...to not have to worry about such things as truth and reality...

                    Now, on the issue of "Family Planning Organizations". Understand that what I'm about to say is not a personal attack. Cripes, I feel silly even having to say that but so many of the liberals and "moderates" on these boards are so thin-skinned that they think disagreement with their opinion constitutes a personal attack...whatever...in essence, what I challenge you to do is find in the US Constitution where it specifically states that one of the federal government's explicitly defined roles is to support "family planning organizations" or anything that could be remotely construed as a "family planning organization"...then, if you can find that (if you want to save time, don't bother - it ain't in there), tell me where it says we should be doing that in Bangladesh, for non-US citizens. Finally, relate those to your argument that the President did a bad thing by "un-funding" those Gambian family planning programs.

                    Sorry to make this sound like a final exam, but I think it's the simplest way to illustrate my point.

                    Now, on the FIRE Act...you're on the right track with that...it IS unconstitutional, it IS a vote-buying scheme. So are entitlement funds for any special interest group (i.e. cops, farmers, etc.). Therefore, the President is again somehow wrong and a meany because his goal is for the federal government to hew to its own rules (the Constitution), get out of the business of funding local services, and return some of our money to us?

                    Sorry if this offends you (actually, I'm not, but it sounds good to liberals and "moderates" when you say that), but I don't see any rhyme or reason to your position. But that's just me. I'm a racist, homophobic, sexist, classist, patriarchy-supporting religious whacko gun nut conservative.
                    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                    Joe Black

                    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Not to start this whole argument again (it's all been done, as Barenaked Ladies say), but I just re-read your post, HC.

                      Where you said, "While I agree that this is a local issue more than a federal one...I still feel that local governments can't always afford to buy the type and amount of equipment that we need. And no this does not mean a $400K truck with all the fancy bells and whistles. You can do just as much with a $150K stripped down version..but many municipalities can't even afford this along with all the other money they have to pay out."

                      Ummm, granted. But why is it the responsibility of MY community here in southeastern PA (which is already funding its fire service adequately and then some) to also fund a fire service in Idaho? Isn't that a little unfair? (I know how liberals love to throw around "fairness" as an argument!) Do you think it makes more sense for the people in that community to share a bit more of the burden for their own fire protection, rather than make my neighbors and me pay twice? Hmmmmmm.
                      "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                      Joe Black

                      The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        - It doesn't surprise me that you can't find the article (if I doubted your sincerity any more, I'd probably say "How convenient", but I'll reserve judgement there). Not having any source material doesn't seem to have changed your mind much. Aaaah, to be a liberal again...to not have to worry about such things as truth and reality... -

                        Bucks, actually you seem to be jumping the gun as it were. 1) I said I was looking..not that I stopped, wouldn't look, etc. 2) Just because I might be a little more liberal than you doesn't mean I don't believe in the truth or reality. Get over yourself.

                        Now, I don't take offense to anything you said. But when you ask about your community having to fund some department in Idaho or wherever, remember that the federal funding will help EVERYONE. So it has nothing to do with fairness. Some communities can afford it, some cannot. Hey great for you that you get tons of money and then some...we don't and many of the other departments around us don't either. Do I get it? Nope, cause our property taxes are like 4K and 5K out here and everyone drives nice fancy cars, but when it comes to supporting the Emergency Services they screw us everytime. Do I think the feds should have to pick up the slack..nope they don't have to..but when Bush uses the types of arguments I previously posted it just ****es me off. His facts are WAY OFF and it basically sounds to me like he is saying "Fire Fighters and the Fire Service...whatever, they don't need money...tell them we are proud of them and move on. Hell most of them work for free anyway so they won't just up and leave." It just hit a nerve is all. So while I agree that it might not be "fair" or whatever you want to call it, I wouldn't mind paying a little more if I knew we were taking care of our own..and by this I mean Americans!

                        And when I spoke of the organizations for family planning I meant US organizations here in the US. Not those from other countries. And do you only do what the constitution tells you to, or what you interpret it as? Then stop throwing that around it is getting old already. No offense, but the constitution for all intents and purposes was probably interpreted 100K ways already by 100K people and none of them were probably even close to being right about what our founding fathers wanted. If you look around at the world you live in you will see that it certainly does not live up to the expectations of people like Abe Lincoln, George Washington, etc. And with all the laws that get implemented and taken away who is to say that the original constitution has that much meaning anymore anyway. I mean we tell people "Freedom of Speech!" then we tell them they can't say that because it is not "politically correct". Whatever. As far as I am concerned...if I can sleep at night, face myself in the mirror in the morning, and genuinely say I like myself then I could care less what anyone else thinks of me. I know who I am. So while I understand your position, no I don't agree with it. Take care.
                        Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Hi, HC -

                          Thanks for the civil response. Let me just add a few comments to what you said.

                          On the subject of federal funding, you said, "But when you ask about your community having to fund some department in Idaho or wherever, remember that the federal funding will help EVERYONE." Where does that federal money come from, HC? Does it appear magically, or is it taken out of my (and your paycheck) every week, before we even see it? This is a common misconception in liberal and "moderate" circles. It basically says that federal money belongs to the government, that the government earned it somehow and can spend it on whatever it wants. The reality, of course, is that federal money is OUR money. We just forget that sometimes because we rarely if ever see it (the tax rebate checks being a notable and encouraging exception). Therefore, I don't see that I'm wrong when I say that people in my community are being forced to pay twice for fire protection. And no, it doesn't help 'everyone'. It helps a select few departments here and there.

                          "So it has nothing to do with fairness." Well, yeah it does, if I have to pay for someone else because their local community is not adequately funding fire protection (which IS certainly a local responsibility). How is this "fair", HC?

                          "Some communities can afford it, some cannot." Not necessarily true. The people in a community basically get what they pay for. If they want a higher level of fire protection, they simply have to pay a little more at the local level. If they don't want to pay, their local fire protection is funded at a lower level, and protection is provided at a lower level. It's a simple equation. The problem is sometimes the fire companies that want to buy 100' tower ladders out in farm country, or put TICs on every piece of apparatus, including the pickup. So not only does the community need to provide the level of funding for the level of fire protection that it wants, but spending priorities also need to be set by that community when it comes to fire protection. Irresponsible use of tax money is not a new problem, and it won't be solved any time soon. But again, I ask, why does that obligate the people of my community to pay twice? I don't think this is a tough concept to get, HC.

                          "Hey great for you that you get tons of money and then some" - never said that. I said that the community supports our efforts adequately and then some. In other words, the community provides enough money for us to pursue a rational apparatus and gear replacement cycle, and afford a few toys here and there. We are not awash in money by any means.

                          "we don't and many of the other departments around us don't either. Do I get it? Nope, cause our property taxes are like 4K and 5K out here and everyone drives nice fancy cars, but when it comes to supporting the Emergency Services they screw us everytime." Again, no offense intended here, HC, but that's *your* fault. If you and your department don't speak up to let the community know what your funding issues and priorities are, who's gonna do it? Bill, the trash collector? In any case, bad planning and poor public relations on your part do not obligate me to contribute to the protection of the people in your community.

                          "Do I think the feds should have to pick up the slack..nope they don't have to..but when Bush uses the types of arguments I previously posted it just ****es me off. His facts are WAY OFF and it basically sounds to me like he is saying 'Fire Fighters and the Fire Service...whatever, they don't need money...tell them we are proud of them and move on. Hell most of them work for free anyway so they won't just up and leave.'" Classic spin, HC. Is this what the President actually said? Obviously not. What you're posting is your impression of what he said. What he did say, in fact, makes perfect sense. Fire deaths *are* trending downward. Firefighter fatalities, while there are spikes from year to year, are on a long-term trend downward. Fires themselves, while there are spikes from year to year, are on a long-term trend downward. We've even had to find other things to do...EMS, anyone? And, the President is EXACTLY RIGHT about the role of the feds in local issues - they should NOT be there. I don't see anything in what the President said that could be construed as either misguided or mean-spirited. But you've managed to spin it that way because of your obvious political bias.

                          "So while I agree that it might not be 'fair' or whatever you want to call it, I wouldn't mind paying a little more..." Great! Send the check to Warminster Fire Deparment, Madison and Ivy Streets, Warminster, PA 18974. I won't hold my breath. While I like your rah-rah spirit of helping Americans and supporting "our own" as you put it - let me put this delicately - why does that obligate me or anyone else (especially people who are NOT firefighters) to pay for the tower ladder in West Jehosaphat, Arkansas? If you want to support your local volunteer unit, please, by all means, do so. I do. And I volunteer. But that doesn't mean I want the feds to take my legally earned wages from me to pay for fire protection 2500 miles away. Clear enough? OK!

                          Just one more thing - I'm starting to get bleary-eyed, here: "And do you only do what the constitution tells you to, or what you interpret it as?" The solid, unassailable truth is that the men who wrote the Constitution intended that it be followed to the letter. They also knew that there would be situations that could arise that the document doesn't cover, or that there would be changed situations for which the laws in the Constitution were no longer appropriate. That's why they allowed amendments to be made to the Constitution. "Interpretation", as you put it, is right out. The Constitution is a fairly plainly-worded document, meant to be followed exactly. There isn't very much room for interpretation, so what I would call the games that liberals like to play with it "extrapolation" or "invention", not "interpretation". If the law can be changed for convenience, or "interpreted" one way one day, and another the next, how can I, you, or any citizen know for sure what our rights are, and what the government can and cannot do? That's a dangerous and slippery slope HC. It's like allowing your chief to change your fire company's bylaws on the fly whenever, wherever, and however he wants. A bad, bad idea, and a misconception about the founders' intent that pervades liberal thinking.

                          One last thing - are you insulted that I call you a liberal? Why is that? It's not meant as a disparaging term, unless you think it connotes some negative impression. And if that's the case, why would you want to ACT like a liberal?
                          "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                          Joe Black

                          The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            hc, face it, you're a liberal. Just look at the policies that concern you.

                            Here's where President Bush is coming from. (although, not perfectly).

                            Conservatives don't believe that certain things should not be done (taking care of the environment, or farmers, or FDs, or whatever). What they do believe is that, in general, these things are NONE of the federal govts. business. That's the bottom line difference.

                            When Bucks talks about not wanting to pay for an FD in Idaho, when he's on a well-funded dept. in PA, and you say they "need" the help - here's what you're saying.

                            "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs..."

                            Now, who said that? (Yes, this is a quiz).

                            Now a bit (round-about) about funding for "family planning agencies". I'm sure you're familiar with the "United Way", right? And some of us (on one side of various issues or the other) don't like certain agencies that the UW funds.

                            UW has always used a particular technique to get around this: you can "designate" your funds. Here's a simplified example:
                            UW funds the Boy Scouts, and Planned Parenthood. One person gives $100, but being a liberal, and not liking the fact that the BSA prohibits gay scoutmasters, designates for PP. Another person, being a conservative, doesn't like that PP provides abortions, so he designates his $100 for the BSA. UW promises that both organizations get the $90 so designated (the extra $10 is their overhead - but that's another story).

                            Now, what really happens: 10,000 people give $100 each. 9,900 don't designate at all. So UW says the BSA gets $500, and PP gets $500,000. If 5 people designate exclusively for BSA, they get the same $500. Only if a 6th person designates for BSA, then BSA gets $600, and consequently PP only gets $499,900.

                            Now the reality is that less than 4% of all UW contributions are designated, so UW gets to decide who gets what. In other words, that "6th person" who's designated contribution puts the BSA over the top never happens (for ANY org).

                            And here's what PP does. They also get Fed funds. They can't use those Fed funds for abortion services or counseling. So they use the Fed funds for "family planning counseling" and free condoms, and free birth control pills. And they use the UW funds for the abortions! And they scrupulously maintain separate accounts, so that even when they're audited the bean counters can't say they did anything wrong.

                            Back to the first point. President Bush's position (and that of all true conservatives) is that all of these programs are extra-constitutional. Here's a radical viewpoint for you (not nec. mine, but it's close):

                            From the conservative viewpoint, the following orgs have no reason to exist, and could be abolished TODAY, if anyone had the guts:

                            The Dept. of Energy
                            The Dept. of Education
                            The Dept. of Health and Human Services
                            The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development
                            Parts of other depts. including (but not limited to...)
                            BATF of the Treasury Dept.
                            Parts of the Foresty Service (Dept of Interior)
                            Parts of the Bureau of Land Managment (also interior)
                            FEMA
                            ALL subsidy programs and price support programs of Dept. of Agriculture (you can keep the loans and the crop insurance programs).

                            I could go on, but I'm getting tired of typing, and need to get some work done, but I think you get the idea.

                            Found the author of the quote, yet?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              OK..while I hate to keep repeating myself..it seems I have to.

                              **On the subject of federal funding, you said, "But when you ask about your community having to fund some department in Idaho or wherever, remember that the federal funding will help EVERYONE." Where does that federal money come from, HC? Does it appear magically, or is it taken out of my (and your paycheck) every week, before we even see it? The reality, of course, is that federal money is OUR money. Therefore, I don't see that I'm wrong when I say that people in my community are being forced to pay twice for fire protection. And no, it doesn't help 'everyone'.

                              And I said the same damn thing...except that I said it does help everyone...who applies for the money anyway. Just like the Fire Act..if you don't apply you won't be eligible...what is the difference of us giving out money to small businesses in West Podunck Alabama, or their police station? Do they deserve the money more than the Fire Service? No.

                              "So it has nothing to do with fairness." Well, yeah it does, if I have to pay for someone else because their local community is not adequately funding fire protection (which IS certainly a local responsibility). How is this "fair", HC?

                              How fair is it that we are paying for their police protection, or ma and pa's country antique store...or some wasteland out there that has some breed of bird that is endangered living on that land? Any way you look at it we get screwed by the Feds so will it really matter if they send some of that money from ma and pa or the police our way?

                              "Some communities can afford it, some cannot." Not necessarily true. The people in a community basically get what they pay for. If they want a higher level of fire protection, they simply have to pay a little more at the local level. Irresponsible use of tax money is not a new problem, and it won't be solved any time soon. But again, I ask, why does that obligate the people of my community to pay twice? I don't think this is a tough concept to get, HC.

                              It is not a tough concept...but you are not understanding me or what I am saying. Remember that whole thing about seeing the truth? Well the truth is that we pay for lots of stuff that don't affect us...do you pay taxes that help to pay for your police protection? Well you pay it twice cause police departments all over the country gets thousands yearly from the government funding programs that have been established for them. I would much rather see that money divided between all the Emergency Services than just going to one division of it.

                              "Hey great for you that you get tons of money and then some" - never said that. I said that the community supports our efforts adequately and then some. In other words, the community provides enough money for us to pursue a rational apparatus and gear replacement cycle, and afford a few toys here and there. We are not awash in money by any means.

                              Hey great...lucky you. Our community does not. We had to beg the township, and then hire a consultant to come in and write a report to the townships this year to get us a measly $5000 more! How pathetic is that? I love fighting fires and I want to continue to do it, but I don't want to have to spend every Saturday doing car washes to afford to buy a set of gear that will protect my life. That makes no damn sense.

                              "we don't and many of the other departments around us don't either. Do I get it? Nope, cause our property taxes are like 4K and 5K out here and everyone drives nice fancy cars, but when it comes to supporting the Emergency Services they screw us everytime." Again, no offense intended here, HC, but that's *your* fault. If you and your department don't speak up to let the community know what your funding issues and priorities are, who's gonna do it? Bill, the trash collector? In any case, bad planning and poor public relations on your part do not obligate me to contribute to the protection of the people in your community.

                              We have gone numerous times, and they don't want to hear it. They feel the money is better spent on the school's new swimming pool, or the landscaping they did around the police station, etc. Is that my fault too? We are not asking for the biggest, best equipped equipment...just something that won't break down every month, that is safe, and that gets us to the call in a timely manner. And we do plenty of good public relations...we cover 27 miles of territory and probably have 1/4 of the budget of the next town over that covers 6 miles total and that includes their mutual aid. Is that our fault too? I mean what would you have us do..hold a gun to the townships head and make them give us more money? It just does not work that way. The next firehouse over is at least 5 miles away and do you think Joe Schmo will care if it is us or them that put out his house fire? Nope. He will probably bitch whether we arrive in 3 minutes or they arrive in 7 minutes. The community doesn't have a clue. We do annual open houses, and other public relations things to get them more involved but they would rather be golfing. That can't be my fault can it?

                              "Do I think the feds should have to pick up the slack.........His facts are WAY OFF and it basically sounds to me like he is saying 'Fire Fighters and the Fire Service...whatever, they don't need money...tell them we are proud of them and move on. Hell most of them work for free anyway so they won't just up and leave.'" Classic spin, HC. Is this what the President actually said? Obviously not. What you're posting is your impression of what he said. What he did say, in fact, makes perfect sense. Fire deaths *are* trending downward. Firefighter fatalities, while there are spikes from year to year, are on a long-term trend downward. Fires themselves, while there are spikes from year to year, are on a long-term trend downward. We've even had to find other things to do...EMS, anyone? And, the President is EXACTLY RIGHT about the role of the feds in local issues - they should NOT be there. I don't see anything in what the President said that could be construed as either misguided or mean-spirited. But you've managed to spin it that way because of your obvious political bias.

                              Not because of political bias. You mean to tell me that you really believe the fires are going down, and that deaths are going down too? Hello? They are building newer and bigger developments every day, and have you watched the news with all the fires out West, or seen all the deaths of fire fighters in the past few months? I have never seen so many acres go up in blazes before. The deaths of fire fighters are on an upswing this year and that is a fact. Look at the LODDs for this year alone.

                              "So while I agree that it might not be 'fair' or whatever you want to call it, I wouldn't mind paying a little more..." Great! Send the check to Warminster Fire Deparment, Madison and Ivy Streets, Warminster, PA 18974. I won't hold my breath. While I like your rah-rah spirit of helping Americans and supporting "our own" as you put it - let me put this delicately - why does that obligate me or anyone else (especially people who are NOT firefighters) to pay for the tower ladder in West Jehosaphat, Arkansas? If you want to support your local volunteer unit, please, by all means, do so. I do. And I volunteer. But that doesn't mean I want the feds to take my legally earned wages from me to pay for fire protection 2500 miles away. Clear enough? OK!

                              Again what about the police protection for Jehosaphat, Arkansas? You are helping to pay for that.

                              Just one more thing - I'm starting to get bleary-eyed, here: "And do you only do what the constitution tells you to, or what you interpret it as?" The solid, unassailable truth is that the men who wrote the Constitution intended that it be followed to the letter. They also knew that there would be situations that could arise that the document doesn't cover, or that there would be changed situations for which the laws in the Constitution were no longer appropriate. That's why they allowed amendments to be made to the Constitution. "Interpretation", as you put it, is right out. The Constitution is a fairly plainly-worded document, meant to be followed exactly. There isn't very much room for interpretation, so what I would call the games that liberals like to play with it "extrapolation" or "invention", not "interpretation". If the law can be changed for convenience, or "interpreted" one way one day, and another the next, how can I, you, or any citizen know for sure what our rights are, and what the government can and cannot do? That's a dangerous and slippery slope HC. It's like allowing your chief to change your fire company's bylaws on the fly whenever, wherever, and however he wants. A bad, bad idea, and a misconception about the founders' intent that pervades liberal thinking.

                              Really?! And the conservatives never INTERPRET anything right? PPPPUUULLEEEAASSEE! You are too much.

                              One last thing - are you insulted that I call you a liberal? Why is that? It's not meant as a disparaging term, unless you think it connotes some negative impression. And if that's the case, why would you want to ACT like a liberal?

                              Not insulted at all. I just don't think anyone is completely liberal or conservative..everyone bends on some things. And when you use the word are you using it in a negative manner? That is how it comes across even if you don't mean it that way. Call me what you want...bleeding heart liberal, nazi feminist, bitch, or anything else. I won't knock you cause you voted for Bush, and I certainly don't disagree with everything he does or has done or probably will do. Can you say that you don't agree with everything he has done, will do, or probably will do? If you can say that you do agree with everything then can I call you a right wing jackass? It doesn't matter I wouldn't anyway. People are different and we are all entitled to our opinions. I am not a TOTAL liberal...just more liberal than you are.
                              Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                hctrouble25

                                The clinics that provide abortions give the literature to these organizations for family planning and their staff simply pass this on to those who request the information.

                                Which is a violation of federal law.

                                She explained that they provide counseling, birth control, information, etc. on pregnancy, family issues, abortion (only when asked),

                                Which is a violation of federal law.

                                Many of the women were to afraid to go face their abusers in court.

                                And that's my fault?

                                Nope.

                                So why am I forced to pay for it?

                                So while I understand Bush's stance on this I think he did not investigate the true nature of these organizations.

                                It's been invesitigated six ways to Sunday since 1970. It's happening, get over it.

                                During the thirty years this has been federal law:

                                Socialist, uh I mean democrates controlled the Whitehouse for twelve years, six of them with both houses of congresses and never changed this law.

                                Socialists controlled both houses of congress for well over half of that time and never changed this law. They only tried once, Reagan vetoed and they lost the over-ride by ten votes in the house.

                                It seems that Pres. Bush and his people have not thoroughly investigated several things.

                                Civilian fire deaths that the press release is referring to are down. Call the NFPA at (800) 344-3555 for details on this amazing story.

                                Just exactly what is the appropriate role of the federal government in the fire service?

                                To forcibly take more money from you to give to some other community that could care less about their fire protection?

                                Every community in America is protected to the level that community wants. If they want more protection, they'll shell out the extra cash or adjust their priorites.

                                The family planning organizations are a good thing...and provided some great services and preach about the right things..abstinence, birth control, adoption, etc.

                                They might be a good thing, after all look at how overcrowded we'd be if they didn't provide abortion services because people are too stupid not to get pregnant and too self centered to have a baby disrupt there lives.

                                You people amaze me, save Woodsy Owl, save the trees, save the whale, save the seal, but kill all the kids you want.

                                How in the hell did I ever buy into that crap...

                                By the way, you are aware that family planning started in the ghettos to reduce the number of blacks aren't you? I didn't think you were. You should do a little more research.

                                That is what annoys me.

                                What annoys me is all this liberal crap and the Constitution don't mean squat when we got a chance to get what's owed to us.

                                What annoys me is people that crap all over the freedoms the Constitution guarantees when they are too stupid to see that the only thing ensuring those freedoms is the Constitution itself.

                                You think we'd be as free today if ted, tom, bill and al didn't have to worry about the Constitution?

                                Hell no.

                                Those guys and more would run over you and everybody else. You'd get your precious living wage and that would be it, the rest would be taken and given to somebody else.

                                Explain to me please how I owe you or any other department (besides the one that covers my home) any money at all.

                                Explain to me what gives the federal government the right to forcibly take my money and give it to you. If somebody came up on the street and did that they'd call it robbery.

                                It is about time the Fire Service got some money out of the deal..and not just 100 Million to shut us up for the year.

                                No, it's about time the feds cut all welfare programs. Each and everyone of them is a state and local issue.

                                Interestingly enough, federal welfare started to come about around the same time as communism did.

                                but many municipalities can't even afford this along with all the other money they have to pay out.

                                These municipalities need to straighten out their priorities.

                                Dallas is paying out somewhere between $10 and 20 MILLION dollars because the nitwit affirmative action promoted police chief decided he wanted his homeys in the upper ranks and demoted people that he wasn't at liberty to demote without cause. What does the city council do? Good job, don't worry, we'll pay it. Now they want another $20 million to make up for any "shortfalls" that may come from their quest to get the Olympics.

                                Priorities are the key.

                                Again, every single US community is getting the level of fire protection it wants.

                                remember that the federal funding will help EVERYONE.

                                No it won't, it only helps those the imperial federal government think are worthy.

                                Nope, cause our property taxes are like 4K and 5K out here and everyone drives nice fancy cars, but when it comes to supporting the Emergency Services they screw us everytime.

                                Repeat after me, your community is paying for the level of protection they want. It may not be the level you want, but its what the community wants.

                                Isn't mob rule, uh I mean democratic rule a great thing!?

                                And do you only do what the constitution tells you to,

                                The constitution is to limit the power of the federal government, not the citizens living under the government.

                                Except of course in the liberal world.

                                Then stop throwing that around it is getting old already.

                                Yeah, nobody cares that we've fought for over 200 years to protect that thing, it's just words on a piece of paper and it don't mean spit.

                                and none of them were probably even close to being right about what our founding fathers wanted.

                                The constitution is clear as to what the fathers wanted. If it is unclear to you, I would suggest the federalist papers as they are written by the founders and make what is so simple even simpler. Even a wet nosed liberal can understand it. I did.

                                If you look around at the world you live in you will see that it certainly does not live up to the expectations of people like Abe Lincoln, George Washington, etc.

                                Nope, they left us a legacy and we crapped on it.

                                So we should just throw the baby out with the bath water.

                                And with all the laws that get implemented and taken away who is to say that the original constitution has that much meaning anymore anyway.

                                Only people like you and democrates, socialist and communists.

                                I mean we tell people "Freedom of Speech!" then we tell them they can't say that because it is not "politically correct".

                                We meaning people like you and democrates, socialist and communists.

                                I know who I am.

                                And now so do we. Thanks for the insight.

                                You know, I was just thinking, you're a lucky one that people are willing to die for the freedom of speech guaranteed to you by that old document. If they didn't, you could be shot for talking about it like that.

                                But then again the parts of the Constitution that suit your purpose are OK, the rest is just old tired BS.

                                what is the difference of us giving out money to small businesses in West Podunck Alabama, or their police station?

                                Great point, absulutely no difference what so ever.

                                Do they deserve the money more than the Fire Service? No.

                                Hell no.

                                And you know what?

                                Neither one should get a red-cent of federal money.

                                Any way you look at it we get screwed by the Feds so will it really matter if they send some of that money from ma and pa or the police our way?

                                Two wrongs now make it right?

                                Oh, and we're getting screwed because people like you will allow the feds to operate outside of their duly sworn oath to the Constitution they took.

                                It is not a tough concept...but you are not understanding me or what I am saying.

                                I understand perfectly, regardless of the Constitutionality of it, you want your share of my money because the cops and other people get it.

                                Well you pay it twice cause police departments all over the country gets thousands yearly from the government funding programs that have been established for them.

                                And these ain't right either. The feds need to stay out of local police protection. Just think of how much money you'd have to donate locally if the feds weren't paying welfare to all these people they do.

                                How does FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS sound? Wow that's the same as the national debt.

                                I would much rather see that money divided between all the Emergency Services than just going to one division of it.

                                Then divide your taxes locally. Don't take mine from my hometown.

                                But wait, you make a great question.

                                Should the federal government set a minimum amount of funding for a fire department that a community has to pay, say base it on the population protected - $100 per person?

                                Our community does not. We had to beg the township, and then hire a consultant to come in and write a report to the townships this year to get us a measly $5000 more! How pathetic is that?

                                Why oh why is it my fault that YOU can't make your case to your own community?

                                I love fighting fires and I want to continue to do it, but I don't want to have to spend every Saturday doing car washes to afford to buy a set of gear that will protect my life. That makes no damn sense.

                                So I need to have more money confiscated than need be so you don't have to wash a car?

                                We have gone numerous times, and they don't want to hear it.

                                Again, this is my fault?

                                They feel the money is better spent on the school's new swimming pool, or the landscaping they did around the police station, etc.

                                What?

                                Your community has its priorities screwed up and the rest of America has to pay as a result?

                                Is that my fault too?

                                Yes, your community voted them in, your community is failing to hold their feet to the fire.

                                we cover 27 miles of territory and probably have 1/4 of the budget of the next town over that covers 6 miles total and that includes their mutual aid.

                                Somebody call her a Whaaambulance.

                                My VFD covers 375+ square miles on 75K in a good year.

                                Is that our fault too?

                                Is it mine?

                                I mean what would you have us do..hold a gun to the townships head and make them give us more money?

                                You're doing that to me by endorsing the federal government to confiscate my money. If I don't pay, they'll be coming in with guns to take what they determine is my fair share.

                                It just does not work that way.

                                Does for the feds.

                                That can't be my fault can it?

                                Yes it can.

                                It can't be mine, why are you making me pay?

                                Again what about the police protection for Jehosaphat, Arkansas? You are helping to pay for that.

                                Yep and it's unconstitutional - I know you hate that word, but facts are facts sister.

                                I am not a TOTAL liberal...just more liberal than you are.

                                Hey, i don't think you're a liberal, I think you're a socialist.

                                You want your government nanny to take care of all the things you can't.
                                It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                                Comment

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