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  • 2 in 2 out question?

    I am curious on some ideas from around the country as to who performs initial "RIC/RIT" functions on the fireground. 2 in 2 out is becoming law in Texas Sept. 1st, and I was curious for a 3 man engine, what the SOP's are from around the country. Is it ok for the Engineer in bunker pants be "available" to be on the team
    "if necessary"....as the rule states. any input would be great.
    Any Opinion expressed, are my own, and do not reflect my Department...RB

  • #2
    Our RIT team is comprised of about 15 members from different departments all over the county. They have tranining separate from their department and invite all departments from the county to at least one of their drills so we know what they do and how they do it. When my department responds to a call we have exterior command - Chief, interior command - Asst. Chief or line officer, and at least 2 teams of 2 inside unless otherwise requested by command. The Engineer or driver stays with the truck! They are not to leave their post for any reason. If we are required to go in and get someone, we would use additional members, or send in one of the two teams after they come out to change their bottles. Most times we use mutual aid for any live fire call and they have several members on stand by packed up and ready to go in if needed. It works well for us.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

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    • #3
      We are starting to get a county RIT team going. Our department uses 2in 2out. The enginer stays with the vehicle unless needed else where.
      "FIRST IN; LAST OUT"

      Drive safe

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      • #4
        The Fire Chief at Harker Heights is hosting a brainstorming session on Friday, August the 17th at his station. A representative from the Texas Commission on Fire Protection will also be there. This may be a good place to find answers to your questions.

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        • #5
          Our SOP in our station is that the engineer stays with the truck. If you don't have four pack qualified guys on the first engine, then the hose crew waits outside until there are two outside to back them up.

          In the past, if there ws a report of entrapment, the crew may have gone in prior to the "2 out" being there and ready, but since our line of duty death, where one of our other township companies had a firefighter die after falling through a floor into a fully involved basement, we rethought that policy. Now, unless the "2 out" are there and ready to intervene, that crew stays at the door - we will not put our own at risk. On reports of working fires/smoke showing our FAST Team is supposed to be dispatched automatically. I have been a big believer in FAST/RIT teams since New Years.

          Be careful out there. You don't do anyone else any good if you become a victim yourself.

          Jim Beutel
          Colonial Manor Fire Association
          West Deptford township, NJ
          My views are, of course, mine alone, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of my station

          "Give me the storm and stress of thought and action rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. " ~ Robert Ingersoll

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          • #6
            To: HcTrouble25

            Hey what county in New Jersey are you talking about? Drop me an e-mail with info on the team. Thanks!! Stay Safe!!

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            • #7
              Hunterdon is the county I am talking about. But I believe Warren and Somerset operate in the same manner. Hope this helps. It works for us...I believe we call it the FAST team. I have only been at one call where they were called in to help us remove an injured fire fighter, but we got him out ourselves.
              Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

              Comment


              • #8
                How about some International SOGs from Canada? Here is how ours works. (sorry, I am typing from memory as my SOG binders are in my locker)

                A minimum of 4 firefighters are required to be on scene prior to the Attack Team entering the structure. Two firefighters for the Attack Team, One firefighter to man the pump, and one firefighter to maintain communication (via voice or radio) with the attack team. This firefighter can be positioned in the doorway, wearing full PPE and SCBA of course, to assist with feeding the hose into the structure. (2 in, 2 out) This firefighter will act as the RIT team until a two man team is established.

                The RIT Team of two firefighters with full PPE and SCBA will be established within Ten minutes of the Attack Team entering the structure (to allow for the second unit or mutial aid unit to show up should the first unit be short handed) and prior to a second attack team entering.

                The RIT team is not allowed to partake in any tasks or assignments that would reduce their ability to make a rapid entrance into a structure should a rescue situation arise. The RIT team will have a hose line and search tools. This hose line, when possible, will be pulled from a second unit in the event of a mechanical failure of the attack team's unit, the RIT team will then still have a fuctional hose line.

                I know there is more, so I am going to remember to bring my books home so I can add to this later on.
                "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

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                • #9
                  3 MAN COMPANY! LUCKY YOU. WE ARE FORCED TO TRY TO DO 2N2O WITH TWO PEOPLE. SC HAS A 2IN 1 OUT STATE CLAUSE, BUT THAT DOSEN'T HELP MUCH EITHER. MY GENERAL RULE IS 2 F/F IN, AND MYSELF AS IC/ ONE OUT IF WE HAVE SOMEONE TO BE A DEDICATED PUMP OPERATOR. OUR CHIEF AND CAPT GO HOME AT 5PM AND DON'T WORK WEEKENDS, SO WE'RE DEPENDENT ON VOL'S THAT MAY OR MAY NOT SHOW UP IF WE'RE GOING TO INT. FIGHT FIRE. EVEN WITH 3 ON A TRUCK THOUGH, THE FF ON OUR TRUCK STILL CANT GO IN UNTIL AT LEAST 2 MORE PEOPLE ARRIVE. BASICLY, WE DO NO INTERIOR FF UNLESS 5 PEOPLE ARE THERE (2 IN, 1OUT, IC, AND PUMP OP.). IT TAKES TIME TO ADJUST - BUT I'D RATHER LET A HOUSE BURN THAN GO TO ANOTHER F/F FUNERAL. LUCK 2 U...

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                  • #10
                    Did you get to attend the meeting in Harker Heights. I understand someone from the Waco FD was there. My understanding is the pump operator can be counted as the #2 person on the 2-Out Team. However I think he/she must be in full bunker gear with an air-pack near-by dedicated for their use. The pump operator must also monitor fireground communications in case the Rescue Team is needed. There were many questions left unanswered at the meeting in Harker Heights. Those questions will be asked of the Advisory Committee to the Texas Commission on Fire Protection at their September meeting. I think they are meeting on September 7. Contact the Fire Chief at Harker Heights. He can answere a lot of your questions concerning the 2-In, 2-Out.

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                    • #11
                      I believe the 2 in 2 out law states that a member of the 2 out CAN NOT be engaged in any other fireground operation, such as pump operator, they must be dedicated to the 2 out team!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pipeman57:
                        I believe the 2 in 2 out law states that a member of the 2 out CAN NOT be engaged in any other fireground operation, such as pump operator, they must be dedicated to the 2 out team!!!
                        Actually, the Federal Osha Standard states:

                        Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.
                        http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/respira...1910_0134.html

                        They then state in Q&A sheet:

                        Q. What duties may the outside firefighters perform in addition to monitoring the inside
                        firefighters?
                        A. One of the outside firefighters must actively monitor the status of the inside firefighters and may not be assigned additional duties. The second outside firefighter may be involved in a wide variety of activities. Both of the outside personnel must be able to provide support and assistance to the two interior firefighters; any assignment of additional duties for the second firefighter must be weighed against the potential for interference with this requirement. OSHA cannot describe all specific compliance scenarios with a performance oriented standard. From OSHA's perspective, proper assignment of firefighting activities at an interior structural fire must be determined on a case-by-case basis and are dependent on the existing firefighting situation.
                        Some examples of other activities or duties that are commonly performed by firefighters
                        and may be performed by one of the outside team members include: pump operations, incident command, the feeding and direction of hose to the entry team, hydrant operations, and outside hose line operation. Factors such as the distance of an individual from the entry point into the involved structure, training and equipment provided to the individual, and the existence of an immediate communication link between the individual and the firefighters entering the structure should be considered in making the assignment. Outside firefighters assigned additional duties must be able to immediately discontinue their other work assignments to perform rescue. Rescue and personal protective equipment must be available to outside firefighters so that there will be no delay in performing rescues.
                        Compliance will always depend on consideration of all the worksite variables and conditions, and the judgement of the incident commander is critical in meeting this performance standard.
                        http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/respira...afiles/qna.pdf

                        That being said, you need to look at your State law too, as not all states are "OSHA" states, so they wouldn't be covered by the federal standard directly. ALL STATES are required to have a standard that is equal to or better than the federal standard.

                        Some states expressly state that the pump operator may not be part of the 2 out. Some are silent. The feds say its ok.
                        The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hctrouble25:
                          Our RIT team is comprised of about 15 members from different departments all over the county.
                          I'm in Mercer County, do you have any SOP's for the FAST?
                          The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                          Comment

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