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  • #16
    Dalmation, i see that you live in Conn. down here in Texas, people do not what to pay more taxes. You have a major war on your hands if taxes go up and property values go up. We have to have several fund raisers durring the year. we have the oldest average in Texas and mabye the US. fixed incomes is the norm here and people fight against any tax raises. a friend of mine sent me some info of a fire department in Missouri and the tax rate for the fire district was 30 cents per 100.00 here in Texas, we can only levy 3 cents per hundred dollars for a fire district. An emergency services district can only levy 10 cents per 100 dollars. yalls tax bills must be hugh. maybe that is why everyone is moving to Texas to escape your taxes. if we had that large rate, even in our rural area we could raise 10 times as much money and have no need of fund raisers.
    we could purchase new equipment every year.
    Thanks for letting me spout off and please send us rain, we some relief from the heat and grass fires.Larry

    Comment


    • #17
      Gee, people only complain about taxes in Texas? Ask the boys from Massachussets about Prop 2 1/2 which limits municipal spending increases to 2.5% per year without a referendum to override.

      Rich? Hardly. My town's Mill Rate is 20.8 mills, or $20.80 per thousand of assesed value -- or $2.08 per hundred. 3/4 goes to the Schools along with a lot of state aid, and everything else in town gets by on the other 1/4 with a little bit of state aid.

      Fire Protection in total, including the Fire Companies, Fire Marshal, Capital spending, LOSAP, and fees to the privately owned water company come to about 1.5 mill, or 15 cents per hundred. That ain't far from you 10 cents per hundred limit! Most towns in the area run 1-2 mills for fire taxes.

      Grand List is $264 million, for a town of 7,000. Largest employer is the State Department of Corrections, and the 4th largest is a mom & pop restaurant, largest taxpayer is a shopping center consisting of a Bowling Alley, a NAPA, a Discount Job Lot department store, and a Salvation Army store. No, we're not poor. But we're hardly swimming in cash -- for that, one goes to Greenwich, CT

      When I joined 14 years ago, I was handed a canvas coat, an old-fashion (no bump cap) leather helmet, and a three year wait list for a pager. Running at the time trucks that where 10, 13, 17, and 39 years old.

      Nah, our taxpayers don't cry about tax increases. That's probably why our operating budget remained constant from 1988 to 1998, actually went down in 1999, and only in 2000 started to have modest increases.

      So, maybe I do know about not having money to spare.
      IACOJ Canine Officer
      20/50

      Comment


      • #18
        Yep, FEMA does have new math...
        The Firehouse posting of the grants so far add up to $15,000,000+, not the 7,000,000 listed (and I cut and paste direct to Excel, so it's not an error on my side!)
        Anyway:

        Actual Dollars:
        Bottom 5:
        CO -0-
        DE -0-
        HI -0-
        ID -0-
        NJ $18,131.00

        Top 5:
        ME $628,967.57
        OH $659,132.00
        IN $675,470.00
        MO $741,497.00
        CA $885,620.00
        TX $959,937.00

        Per Capita:
        Low 5:
        NJ $0.00
        MD $0.01
        AZ $0.01
        UT $0.02
        PA $0.02

        Top 5:
        SD $0.20
        MT $0.27
        AK $0.29
        WY $0.33
        ME $0.49

        Remember, there's only $0.32 per person nationwide to go around, so Wyoming and Maine only states that have made money so far.

        Number of Grants:
        Low 5 (after the zilch club)
        MD 1
        RI 1
        ND 1
        VT 1
        VA 2

        High 5
        NY 11
        KY 11
        IN 13
        CA 17
        TX 17

        Average Grant Size:
        Low 5 (excluding Zilch Gulch
        NJ $6,043.67
        UT $11,670.33
        AR $15,332.83
        IA $16,941.33
        AZ $21,024.33

        High 5:
        VA $92,000.00
        NC $106,255.80
        NE $111,150.00
        MO $123,582.83
        ME $125,793.51

        For the full spreadsheet, see http://www.mortlake.org/Miscfire/Fir...s/sheet003.htm

        The data was a direct cut and paste from the FEMA spreadsheet posted at http://www.firehouse.com/funding/fir...ecipients.html

        Matt
        IACOJ Canine Officer
        20/50

        Comment


        • #19
          THAT IS JUST REALITY FOR SOME OF US. SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME TO STOP WHINING. STAY SAFE OUT THERE.

          Ok, I won't tell you to stop whining this time. Please stop shouting.

          But I'm sorry, there is no place in New Jersey, nor Connecticut, where the tax-base can not support fire protection. By the way, my company protects 25 square miles with an ambulance area of 70 square miles -- so we're not quite a booming suburb up here in the sticks of northeastern CT. We're not talking about states with huge uninhabited lands, or sprawling low population ranches.

          Reality can change. It's called elections. Most rural towns, the Fire Company(s) are the second largest and the best organized group of people (the largest and not so organized is the Parent-Teacher Orgs). Start flexing. Change doesn't happen overnight, often only small changes happen year to year, but over the decades big changes occur.
          IACOJ Canine Officer
          20/50

          Comment


          • #20
            pres41

            Looks like another goverment farce.

            Ya' think?

            How long did it take you to figure that out?

            JMKFIRE

            It also looks like Florida and Texas are fairing pretty well themselves.

            Nearly 2,300 fire departments in Texas. Are there more anywhere?

            pres41

            Yes the bigger states have a higher population, but they also have a higher number of paid depts

            Not necessarily.

            and if they protect a higher number of people then their tax base should be higher also thus more moneys available,

            Not necessarily, depends on the what the tax rate is.

            the truley needy volunteer Depts in the small and rural states get screwed again

            You sound surprised.

            Did you really think small departments were going to come out on top? Hell no, there ain't no votes in small towns. A vote buying scheme is wasted on small town America.

            Plug-Ugly

            If you don't get one, tough sh--.

            Yep

            Maybe next time, but don't begrudge the ones who do get it.

            Maybe a better idea is to dump the whole program, refund the money that is confiscated from the taxpayer to fund it back to the taxpayer so they can choose whether or not they want to support their local fire department.

            Dalmatian90

            I don't see a big difference between the citizens of the big and small states to pay for their own fire protection.

            YES!!!

            Each and every community in the US is funding their fire department to the level of protection/service they want. If they want more and are afraid to raise taxes, cut some of the BS government shouldn't be involved in anyway and send that money to the FD. Or, suck it up and raise the taxes LOCALLY.

            Turk II

            Stop complaining and be glad that we're starting to get some support from the government.

            You're not getting government support, the politicians are simply trying to buy your vote with yet another unConstitutional federal program payed for with money confiscated at gun point if necessary from hard working Americans - you and me.

            Jmatteau

            and our @$$ hole of a president never had to give us anything.

            What does the President owe us?

            Where in the Constitution, which you may recall sets the powers and duties of the Federal Government, are programs like the Fire Act authorized?

            Just remember, it's not over yet.

            Nope, they haven't bought enough votes yet...

            hctrouble25

            The feds need to take us more seriously.

            Why?

            Fire protection is a local issue.

            They will when we are all paid and the citizens are bitching about having to pay 5-10% taxes per year to pay us for fire protection.

            There's the solution to problems, call in the feds.

            Works everytime doesn't it...

            I'll ask again, (for everyone, not just you hctrouble) what has the federal government stuck its nose in and made it better?

            NOTHING.

            Some of our troops are on food stamps while prisoners get three hots and a cot. American Indians are treated like crap, our inner cities are a mess, medical care under the government sucks, your money is taken from you for your retirement drawing roughly 2% annually, but their own money draws 17% on average because they can opt out of SS. The war on drugs is still being fought and just keeps getting worse, people cared for by the feds are in despair.

            Washington DC is controlled by the feds. They have one of the highest crime and poverty rates in the nation.

            If they can't take care of their own house, how do you expect them to take care of yours?

            Would you rather send your money to your city and have the money put in the FD budget, or send it to the feds, have them confiscate what they want right off the top and then dole out the rest as they see fit?

            and hopefully the feds will start to see a serious need for this money to be handed out annually.

            Hopefully fire departmenst will WAKE UP and see the last thing we need is the feds in our face.

            Silver City 4

            I'd rather have more of my taxes back than have the Fire Grant. But it's there, so we'll apply. As for the fact that law enforcement gets (and has had) support from the federal government, I don't think the solution is to INCREASE federal money for fire departments. I think that the federal government should DECREASE federal money for law enforcement.

            Local issues are best dealt with on the local level.


            AMEN!

            Dalmatian90

            Then quit whining and get tax support.

            YES!

            hctrouble25

            WE CANNOT GET TAX SUPPORT JUST BY SAYING WE WANT IT,...THEY GET FIRE PROTECTION WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY OUT MUCH MONEY AND THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY.

            Not singling you out, but why is the lack of local funding in your, or any other town, the American taxpayers problem?

            Isn't it a local problem?

            LIKE I SAID...VIRIGINA BEACH VA?! PLEASE THEY HAVE TONS OF MONEY COMING IN...

            Like I said, this is a vote buying scheme pure and simple.

            Smell it all around you brothers and sisters, regardless of how you want to see it or spin it, the Fire Act is simply welfare for fire departments.

            WHAT IS THAT OLD SAYING? "MONEY GOES TO MONEY"?

            Part of the deal was you had to match part of the grant based on your population. If you couldn't match, you didn't get.

            Dalmatian90

            It's called elections. Most rural towns, the Fire Company(s) are the second largest and the best organized group of people (the largest and not so organized is the Parent-Teacher Orgs). Start flexing. Change doesn't happen overnight, often only small changes happen year to year, but over the decades big changes occur.

            Yep, the VFD in most communities can carry an election for mayor, city council, county commissioners, you name it.

            [ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]
            It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

            Comment


            • #21
              Sorry Dalmation...wasn't meaning to shout...just trying to differentiate your statements from mine is all. Mongo..although we don't always agree, I see your point on this. I feel federal grants are needed in some areas, but maybe you are right that the federal government is not going to really do too much for us and that having them in our face is not the best solution. Man, getting funding is getting harder by the day. Take care and stay safe.
              Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

              Comment


              • #22
                WE didn't get any, "sniff"/"sob", well maybe next time......

                Of course, maybe pigs will fly too!
                Oklahoma Bound!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Some stats as of today

                  # TOTAL $ % OF $
                  DE 1 $7,350.00 0.04%
                  NJ 3 $18,131.00 0.10%
                  RI 1 $29,514.00 0.16%
                  UT 3 $35,011.00 0.19%
                  MD 1 $59,850.00 0.33%
                  ND 1 $67,500.00 0.37%
                  VT 1 $90,000.00 0.49%
                  NV 2 $97,839.00 0.53%
                  CO 2 $116,865.00 0.64%
                  SD 2 $153,540.00 0.84%
                  WV 3 $154,180.48 0.84%
                  WY 2 $163,800.00 0.89%
                  AR 9 $168,848.00 0.92%
                  AZ 5 $173,413.00 0.95%
                  ID 3 $176,850.00 0.97%
                  VA 2 $184,000.00 1.00%
                  PA 5 $193,701.00 1.06%
                  NH 3 $203,092.00 1.11%
                  TN 7 $216,129.00 1.18%
                  NE 2 $222,300.00 1.21%
                  VI 1 $241,780.00 1.32%
                  IA 6 $243,582.00 1.33%
                  MT 3 $245,559.00 1.34%
                  CT 6 $295,020.00 1.61%
                  OR 11 $310,352.00 1.69%
                  NM 7 $327,995.00 1.79%
                  LA 9 $362,152.00 1.98%
                  AL 6 $364,838.00 1.99%
                  MN 7 $371,574.00 2.03%
                  WI 8 $375,380.00 2.05%
                  OK 8 $384,808.00 2.10%
                  KS 6 $387,417.00 2.12%
                  NY 11 $423,023.00 2.31%
                  MI 9 $451,952.00 2.47%
                  SC 8 $457,674.00 2.50%
                  MA 6 $462,224.00 2.52%
                  MS 6 $469,247.00 2.56%
                  FL 9 $470,740.00 2.57%
                  AK 3 $485,935.00 2.65%
                  IL 8 $530,635.00 2.90%
                  NC 5 $531,279.00 2.90%
                  WA 9 $536,117.00 2.93%
                  KY 12 $628,168.00 3.43%
                  ME 6 $628,967.57 3.43%
                  OH 9 $659,132.00 3.60%
                  IN 13 $666,470.00 3.64%
                  MO 6 $741,497.00 4.05%
                  GA 11 $883,391.00 4.82%
                  TX 17 $959,937.00 5.24%
                  CA 24 $1,888,391.00 10.31%
                  243 $18,317,150.05 100%
                  The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    This is not meant to begrudge anyone for there award, but asking for $300,000.00+ for a Class A Pumper sounds extreme to me. We applied for a new truck,Have not been declined yet) but we feel we can get a fully loaded truck for $150,00.00. These high dollar trucks while great to have could have maybe be 150 to 200 G's and would have let more departments benefit from the grants.

                    Just my opinion.

                    Has any one heard what the catagories will be for next year?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I have to agree that there looks to be some partiality there.I am on a small OHIO volunteer dept. and just got word today that we are receiving $49,000 for PPE.My only advice to you is just keep your head up because there is still hope.We pretty much figured we wasn't going to get any money either so this was a shock to all of us.

                      Stay safe and hopeful as well.

                      Mike
                      come check us out www.geocities.com/oakwood_vfd

                      [ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: thunter16148 ]

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        All the apparatus money is gone now. We asked for 90K, we got it and we certainly had more need for it than most of the folks bitching on line about the folks getting grants.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Poor Dal, only 2.5% (automatic?) increase per year w/o a referendum. But it sounds like you're not even getting that?

                          Where I grew up, it took a 60% vote (super-majority) to pass any tax increase. And the county couldn't "deficit spend". So you asked for a millage for the FD (when I left in 1987 it was 22, total about 1100, 750 of which when to schools) and if it passed, that was all you got, year after year, unless you passed another mill increase.

                          But here's the fun part. In the 70's this was a very under-developed area. In the 80's, the county DECREASED the prop. tax millage across the board. They also passed a 5 yr. 1/2 rate for new businesses. (If you start a new company and base it in that county, you pay 1/2 the mill rate for the first 5 years).

                          And the result? Population doubled between 1980 and '85, again in '92, again in '96, and yet again in 2000. Number of businesses exploded even more. Last time I visited my Dad, I didn't recognize the place. I'm talking like one street where we used to go have bonfires/parties in '80 (farmland, basically abandoned) is now a 4 lane each way, lined w/5 to 10 story office complexes.

                          The tax break (the 5 yr. 1/2 rate thing) is't there anymore - but the county is still the fastest growing one in MO. And the FD's budget has kept up with the increased demands right along with it. Without a millage increase since they became a tax-funded fire protection district in 1977.

                          Where I live now, on the other hand.....

                          Every year the Mayor says "lets revitalize the downtown business district! We'll build a new convention center. Okay everyone, let's all contribute" (note the wording here) " an additional 1 cent via the sales tax." Thank god for term limits!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Actually, that's Mass with Prop 2-1/2 restrictions.

                            I'm in Connecticut were the laws are much saner, and give voters at Town Meeting in most cases the final say on a single budget general & school budget. Even if the Meeting is adjourned to a Referendum, it's still a simple majority.

                            While budgets can't grow quickly, naturally confined by increases in assesments and income growth (can't pay what you don't have), at least a simple majority can decide year to year what's best for it's own community right now. And while I favor doing away with annual budgets and moving to Two or Three year budgets to reduce the annual waste of time in budget battles, it's not fair either to hamstring a community of today with what the community of 10 or 20 years ago thought was proper, or even to restrict one community because of the indiscretions of another (like 2-1/2).

                            Imagine how much easier local gov't could work if you only fought budget battles for six months out of 36...instead of today's six months out of 12? How many other non-budget planning details Department heads & managers could focus on fixing?
                            IACOJ Canine Officer
                            20/50

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hey play...I guess you are an expert on what every other department out there needs huh? Good for you! NOT! Please, 90K is a lot of money for a truck, and you should be grateful, but please don't put the rest of down for being upset that we didn't get any money. You got lucky is all. Next year the roles might be reversed and I am sure you wouldn't want us to tell you to stop bitching cause you don't have the same need as we do. I don't know what your need is. All I know is our need is great and we didn't get the money we needed. So yea some of us are expressing our disatisfaction. Deal with it man.
                              Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Not all of the vehicle money has been given out.....

                                Vehicles 7.7 million of 15 million
                                Unknown award for $95,000
                                Training 9.7 million of 6.5 million ???
                                Fire Prevention 872,000 of twelve million

                                according to FEMA's website
                                The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                                Comment

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