It's Ba-ack

[mongofire_99]

How much is your vote worth?

Does the US Constitution still have any meaning or is it just something nice to read, but we've progressed way beyond it now?
http://www.firehouse.com/funding/fireact/072001.html

[BLACKSHEEP1]

I'm an NRA member mongo, does that clear up my poimt of view? I'm with you on this one.

[bgfdchick]

Interesting topic, Mongo. In fact, one of my regulars at the bar I work at got into a heated discussion about our personal rights, gun control, etc. For example, he feels that we should have guns whenever we want - no questions asked. For several reasons, I disagree (criminals/felons, in example, should not). However, he feels that gun legislation is a way for the government to take complete control of our lives and "become a return to Nazi Germany".

Whatever...

I know our government [email protected]&s up a lot. Politicians seem immoral...We pay too much tax...Social Security probably won't be around when I retire. But I've lived all over the world and have been subjected to some of the worse discrimination because I'm american, female (and, no, thats not a pun about the "female FF" tiff...so save it please).

After experiencing the world, I see the US in a different light. In many ways, the Constitution may seem outdated. But if we look at the spirit of which it was written, and we see the alternatives (I don't think any of us have been driven from our homes like in the Soviet countries)....we have it pretty damn good here.

[BucksEng91]

bgfdchick -

We do have it pretty damn good here. But it won't be so good if we allow the government to slowly chip away at our rights. The feds already pretty much ignore the Constitution on a daily basis, and no one gets upset.

There's a famous quote from a priest(?), I believe, in Nazi Germany (I could be really wrong in the details), and I'm going to paraphrase here, but it goes something like:

"First they came for the Jews. I was silent. I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists. I was silent. I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists. I was silent. I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me. There was no one left to speak for me."

It's the same way with the Constitution, chick. Slowly and subtly, but inexorably, American citizens' rights are being eroded. And people are generally quiet because the erosion doesn't affect them personally. Or worse yet they get behind things like abrogating the Second Amendment because it seems like a good idea at the time. A day will come, if we're not careful, where suddenly there WILL be personal effect. And people will wonder, "How did this happen?"

History has proven that governments by their nature will attempt to fill power voids wherever they exist. When citizens step back from their responsibility of holding government accountable, the government will inevitably and inexorably step into the gap left.

I'm not a black helicopter, gun-toting, Art Bell fanatic. I'm simply a student of history. If the people of the United States think they are any different than the millions, or billions of people who have gone before in having their rights stolen from them from an out of control government, they are sadly mistaken.

It has happened to democracies, republics, stable countries and unstable ones. There is no magic in the air that makes America different. It's the people, our Constitution, and the people's will, that makes America different. If the American people continue to ignore that in large numbers, the consequences will be too terrible to even imagine.

[MetalMedic]

Oh great, let's bring up gun control and REALLY watch the sparks fly!

For those who have not paid attention to it, here is what the Second Amendment says:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Ok, I won't argue with that. If you are part of a "well regulated militia", you can keep and bear all the Arms you want. But tell me this, if you do not have some form of gun control, how on earth is is possible to have a "well regulated militia?" To "regulate" something, you need regulations. Since this is the United State Consitution we are talking about, regulations come about in the form of Federal laws. So, if the NRA really wants to support the Second Amendment, they really should be in support of gun control legislation so that they can have "A well regulated militia."

[fc80chief]

Ok Metamedic you asked for it, now you are going to get it

1. Madison (one of the founding fathers and framers of the constitution) stated in the Federalist Papers that "The militia is the whole of the people".

2. If you look in a dictionary from pre 1950 you will also see another denifinition for the word regulated stating "well trained". (its all in the language)

Now lets go for a nice little stroll down logic lane.

The framers of the constitution went to great lengths in the Bill of Rights to empower the masses and limit the scope of the government so as not to have a tyranny in power of the citizens of this great land. Why in the world would they limit the masses in the one area that the masses can resort to when all else fails.

The second amendment is not about sport shooting or hunting. Plain and simply it is the "Reset Button" that was built in to the constitution.

WAKE UP AMERICA!

The views set forth above are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of my department or my employer, although they should represent the views of the nation as a whole.

Just my opinion

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

This thread was about the funding of the FIRE act. From the previous threads, there have been many different opinions, both for and against. We can agree to disagree on the FIRE act (I would rather see the small percentage of my tax dollars going to use in the FIRE act go to the fire service rather than being doled out to illegal immigrants, corporate welfare, weapons systems that don't work and the like) but since this thread has veered into the minefield known as gun control...

Everytime there is a crime involving a gun, there are those who cry out We need to outlaw guns! We need more gun control legislation!

Who gets the shaft from gun control laws? The gun owners who abide by the rules!

What we the people need to do is request that our law enforcement community enforce what is already on the books, not create new and unenforceable legislation!

FYI, I do not own a firearm, nor care to at this point in time. If I want the thrill of shooting, I will ask my son to use his paintball gun and shoot at targets in my backyard. I work with and know a lot of people who own firearms for hunting, target shooting and personal protection in their homes. They are responsible gun owners.

Politically, I consider myself "middle of the road". I do agree with some laws for the common good. (seatbelts for example...been to my share of accidents, burying a close friends and watching my insurance premiums rise) Some of my friends and co-workers are what the late Morton Downey Jr. would call "pablum puking liberals". Some make Rush Limbaugh look like Vladimir Illyevich Lenin! When it comes to politics, we can agree to disagree...that's what makes our country great.

Bucks is right..we have seen what happens when a society allows it's freedoms to be eroded...those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. In this I also see a little irony...In the former Soviet block, Communism has faded and being slowly replaced by capitalism while we are slowly edging toward the other direction.

Just my .03 worth..Captains have to pay a little more!

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]

[comwhite]

I know this thread isn't about gun control, but I thought since the subject has come up, some of you might enjoy this:

(author unknown)


"Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician.... 0.171
(U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.

Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but almost everyone has at least one Doctor.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

As a Public Health Measure, the statistics on Lawyers have been withheld for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical aid. "

Nuff said?

[BucksEng91]

Oh, cripes...don't get me started on the Second Amendment.

MetalMedic, you said this: "But tell me this, if you do not have some form of gun control, how on earth is is possible to have a 'well regulated militia?'"

There are currently, in the Federal Register, nearly 100,000 words worth of federal gun laws. How many more do we need to get "well regulated", MetalMedic? Another 10,000? Maybe another 100,000?

Here's how legal precendent views the Second Amendment and the precious "the militia is the National Guard and vice-versa" argument:

The Founding Fathers made it clear that the Militia was composed of the populace at large. Both the Congress and Supreme Court have affirmed this definition of the Militia.

1. Founding Fathers
* George Mason: "I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."

* Virginia Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 13 (1776): "That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free State; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty. . . ."

* Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them . . . . The mind that aims at a select militia [like the National Guard], must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle."

2. U.S. Congress
* The Militia Act of 1792. One year after the Second Amendment was added to the Constitution, Congress passed a law defining the militia. The Militia Act of 1792 declared that all free male citizens between the ages of 18 and 44 were to be members of the militia. Furthermore, every citizen was to be armed. The Act stated:
"Every citizen . . . [shall] provide himself with a good musket, or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints . . . ."
The Militia Act of 1792 made no provision for any type of select militia such as the National Guard.

* U.S. Senate Subcommittee Report (1982). "In the Militia Act of 1792, the second Congress defined 'militia of the United States' to include almost every free adult male in the United States. These persons were obligated by law to possess a [military-style] firearm and a minimum supply of ammunition and military equipment. . . . There can be little doubt from this that when the Congress and the people spoke of the a 'militia,' they had reference to the traditional concept of the entire populace capable of bearing arms, and not to any formal group such as what is today called the National Guard."

* Current Federal Law: 10 U.S.C. Sec. 311. "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and . . . under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States . . . ."

3. Supreme Court: U.S. v. Miller (1939). In this case, the Court stated that, "The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense . . . [and that] when called for service, these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

Is that clear enough for ya, Metal?

[CFD14EMT]

Okay, for those of you that missed this the last time I posted it, here you go. And yes I am also a member of the NRA.


Subject: GUN REFRESHER COURSE

a. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

c. Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface.

d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

e. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

g. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

i. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

j. The United States Constitution (c) 1791.
All Rights Reserved.

k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand.

l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.

m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety.

p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay alive.

q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer.

r. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs
safer. (Or, how about--- "Gun Control: OSHA
for Criminals")

t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson.

u. Only a government that is afraid of it's citizens try to control them.

v. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

w. Enforce the "gun control laws" in place, don't make more.

x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.

y. The American Revolution would never have happened with Gun Control.

z. "....a government by the people, for the people....."

ANY QUESTIONS?

This brings up the next form of control. Campaign Finance Reform. Which is simply making it illegal for groups like the NRA to donate to pro gun politicians, And making it illegal to sponsor political ads 60 days prior to an election.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Captain Gonzo, no disrespect sir, but
I would rather have my tax dollars go directly to the person or person's, fire deparments, or anywhere locally that need them, rather than sent to Washington D.C. as DOLLAR$ and returned as pennies. Unfair taxation was what the framers of the Constitution were fighting for.

[bgfdchick]

Commentary not necessary...

Why don't we get back to offering our opinions, not trying to split hairs on the opinions with others.

I specifically did not elaborate on my views so I could prevent an overrated discussion. My bad. I have reasons - both personal and political - for my beliefs.

I was simply elaborating on Blacksheep's note about being a member of the NRA - which apparently explains a lot. However, my views are unchanged. I'm happy with our government here. And I'm quite confident, BucksEng91, that we will not errode into Nazi-ism, or whatever you spouted off about.

I feel we DO have a powerful voice - if we are responsible and proactive in how we use it. Maybe I'm naieve - or just a grateful US Citizen. But I have better things to do than to gripe about all the things that "could/might/maybe will' go wrong.

I'm certainly not going to explain myself and go into a political hissy-fit because I'm the only positive voice in this thread.

[mongofire_99]

BLACKSHEEP-1

I'm an NRA member mongo, does that clear up my poimt of view? I'm with you on this one.

Being an NRA member doesn't really say where you stand on this issue, but pointing it out in that way you did does. It seems we agree on something !

bgfdchick

Interesting topic

Flattery will get you no where

he feels that we should have guns whenever we want - no questions asked.

And we should.

For several reasons, I disagree (criminals/felons, in example, should not).

I agree for only violent felons and insane should have their rights to keep and bear arms taken away.

I know our government [email protected]&s up a lot.

What have they ever gotten involved in that they haven't screwed up?

We pay too much tax...

Yep

Social Security probably won't be around when I retire.

Probably?

But I've lived all over the world and have been subjected to some of the worse discrimination... ...After experiencing the world, I see the US in a different light.

Eldridge Cleaver (for those that don't know who he is, you should - look it up) said it is better to be in jail in America than a free man in most other countries.

BucksEng91

"First they came for the Jews....

Rev. Martin Niemöller, spent seven years in a concentration camp.

Incidentally "In Germany they first came for the Communists..."

Slowly and subtly, but inexorably, American citizens' rights are being eroded.... ...And people will wonder, "How did this happen?"

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
--Norman Thomas, six-time Socialist Party presidential candidate and one of the founders of the ACLU.

It has happened to democracies, republics, stable countries and unstable ones. There is no magic in the air that makes America different. It's the people, our Constitution, and the people's will, that makes America different. If the American people continue to ignore that in large numbers, the consequences will be too terrible to even imagine.

Just wow.

MetalMedic

So, if the NRA really wants to support the Second Amendment, they really should be in support of gun control legislation so that they can have "A well regulated militia."

Newsflash Rich, the NRA does support gun control legislation, just not the kind nitwit leftists want.

fc80chief

Now lets go for a nice little stroll down logic lane.

I love it!

The second amendment is not about sport shooting or hunting. Plain and simply it is the "Reset Button" that was built in to the constitution.

Interesting point.

Captain Gonzo

(I would rather see the small percentage of my tax dollars going to use in the FIRE act go to the fire service rather than being doled out to illegal immigrants, corporate welfare,

Which by the way are all unconstitutional.

weapons systems that don't work and the like)

But what about developing weapon systems for national defense that do work?

Should our tax dollars be confiscated for that?

The gun owners who abide by the rules!

Another logical statement that slides right by leftists.

Or they simply don't care that law abiding citizens rights are the only ones that get trampled on. Any leftists out there care to fill us in or straighten me out on this?

If I want the thrill of shooting, I will ask my son to use his paintball gun and shoot at targets in my backyard.

Hopefully the boy ain't out playing war games with the paintball gun, that'll lead to him murdering somebody.

When it comes to politics, we can agree to disagree...that's what makes our country great.

Amen!

BucksEng91

Is that clear enough for ya, Metal?

Great post Bucks, but it ain't clear enough for him.

CFD14

This brings up the next form of control. Campaign Finance Reform.

Someone called it the "Incumbant Protection Act"

And making it illegal to sponsor political ads 60 days prior to an election.

Really one of the dumbest things ever proposed. Us Americans really don't pay attention to what's going on until the last few weeks prior to an election. And with that one little clause, Americas reporters in newspapers, TV and radio (the media) will be the ones to decide who our next elected officials are.

"How's that mongo?"

Easy, they will be your only source of information for SIXTY days prior to an election. Reporters can change the average voter mind on any topic in less than a paragraph printed on a page or thirty minutes, photographers can do it in less than one second.

bgfdchick

I have reasons - both personal and political - for my beliefs.

And you're allowed to. But, if you were to find that your beliefs were on shakey ground and based on lies, would you be apt to change them?

that we will not errode into Nazi-ism,

Do you personally think were headed for socialism?

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

CFD14 no offense or disrespect taken..thank you for your opinion!

Mongo...I have no problems with weapons systems that work. There is a price to pay for freedom, because freedom is not free. I do have a problem with defense contractors who skew test results in order to sell the military the latest technological gee-gaws (this after millions of $$$s in cost overuns). When the time comes to use it on the battlefield, it's not their butts on the line, it's our defenders of freedom! If they win a bid to develop, test and build a weapons system, then they should be held accountable for coming in on time and on budget.

I do have a problem when our armed forces squabble over who gets what toys and how many, for example, take fighter planes...make them all strong enough so they can land on a aircraft carrier. Give them the capability to carry all of the weapons systems, like the Phoenix missle, only used by the Navy.

Give our military personnelwho in my opinion aren't paid enough to defend our freedom a decent salary.

I have problem with corporate America charging the military (who we pay for) outrageous prices for tools, toilet seats, etc. They feel that a $25 fiberglass handled rubber mallet should cost $500 is it is written up as MilSpec 012345, Classification: Tool, Hand, Mallet, Rubber, Handle, Fiberglass. This same mentality has gone to some fire equipment suppliers...a $10 inflatable kiddie pool becomes a $100 piece of haz mat equipment once the words "fire department haz mat decon pool" are imprinted!

My son does go to a paintball facility called "Friendly Fire" to play "army". He has complete set of bdu's and a highly accurate paintball gun and pistol. The only thing he's killed so far are the two liter soda bottles he places at varying distances and hangs in the trees for target practice. Coincidentally, I'm a better shot than he is!

Bucks...I am in violation of the Militia Act of 1792...should I turn myself in?

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]

[mongofire_99]

Captain Gonzo

There is a price to pay for freedom, because freedom is not free.

YESSIR! You said it.

I have problem with corporate America charging the military (who we pay for) outrageous prices for...

I agree. Yet, (and while it's not the only reason it's part of it) one of the reasons things cost so much is to fund the black helicopter, uh I mean secret portion of the defense budget.

a $10 inflatable kiddie pool becomes a $100 piece of haz mat equipment once the words "fire department haz mat decon pool" are imprinted!

Come on cap, you know the extra $90.00 was to take the embarassing fish and flower imprints off the side of it. How professional does a grownup in a Michelin Tire suit look when he's standing in a pool with little flowers all over it. It's bad enough they're being washed by other grownups.

And for the reader in general, which of the following do you agree with?

1. The government must undertake the obligation of providing citizens with adequate opportunities for employment and earning a living.

2. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community.

3. The nationalization of all big business.

4. The government shall share in the profits of large industries.

5. Provision for the aged shall be made on a very greatly increased scale.

6. The passing of a law for the confiscation of land for communal purposes.

7. It's OK to grab private land for national requirements without re-embursement.

8. The government shall fund and ensure the cultural system of the nation.

9. Citizenship shall be taught in the schools from the very beginning.

10. Specially talented children of poor parents, no matter what their station or occupation, shall be educated at the cost of the government.

11. The government should raise the standard of the nations health by providing maternity centers and by prohibiting juvenile labor.

12. We must combat the materialistic spirit within and outside us.

13. We are convinced that the permanent recovery of our nation can only proceed within the framework of "The common good before the individual good."

I'd say it's a safe bet to say these are positions held by the democratic and green partys and democrats and greens in general, would you agree?

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]

[BucksEng91]

To Gonz -

Cap, you better march your criminal butt right down to the nearest police station.