NFPA 1710 - Anyone else see this?

[Halligan84]

NFPA 1710: An Implementation Decision
DATE POSTED: 9/4/01
----------------------------------------
Career fire departments should not adopt NFPA 1710. Instead, departments should use the deployment standard to do good long-range planning.

That was the message to fire chiefs from the International Association of Fire Chiefs in four workshops at Fire-Rescue International, the IAFC annual convention in New Orleans Aug. 24-27.

John Rukavina, director of the Wake County (N.C.) Department of Public Safety, told chiefs at the convention that “it’s never a good idea to adopt a standard because then you’re liable to it.”

What was all the noise about passing this standard if the Chiefs weren't going to support adoption of it?? I hope Chief Rukavina doesn't feel that way about PPE and SCBA standards too!

[ADSNWFLD]

If you can't comply immediatly you shouldn't consider adopting 1710.
Their have been enough posts about what this standard means. If you can say that you are working towards 1710 then you have some ammo against a lawsuit. But if you adopt it and can't comply you will be at the loosing end of any litigation.
I'm sure the chief isn't against it, he is just looking at the big picture.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I think that one of the problems with that position is that the Standard is already out there. Even if you don't formally adopt it, there is a good chance that you will be held to that standard in court anyway. It's kind of like saying that you don't adopt the legal drinking age as 21, so you drink at 17.

The fire investigation field has that problem with NFPA 921. Even though it's a "guide", the courts are using it as the standard of care in the profession. The NFPA has some mighty big juice.

[distchief60b]

Halligan84

He is wrong wrong wrong..... The fact that the standard is out there and is adopted by NFPA is enough to make you liable. Sure...you dont have to follow it or adopt it...but...you let something happen to a member of your department that is related to that standard, whether it be 1710, 1971, 1851, 1500, 1501.....etc...... See how long it takes some lawyer to sue you (the Chief) and your department.

Before you go off and attack me about NFPA...I will say that while I do not agree with the content of all the standards, the ones relating to safety and such are vital and should be followed. NFPA 1710 is no doubt driven by the IAFF in a attempt to secure more staffing...what will it solve? Well..more staffing means someone else can take a vacation day...isnt that the way it works most of the time.

You may not chose to adopt or follow 1710...but you are liable because it does exist and is developed and adopted by an agency that is historically known for developing recognized standards and guidelines.

Most departments cant meet it today and wont tomorrow. But...in order to work toward meeting it, all they need to do is come up with a written plan and continue to revise it each time they get to the end of the time frame for the plan. Wont eliminate liability...but..they can then say..."We are attempting to comply!"

[Halligan84]

George and Cap.. I agree, it would seem to me that getting the town to agree to adopt it with a plan to have it implemented in 5 years is a better way to go about it. I do agree that it is all about more members, and yes most guys see the ability to take a vacation day or an extra guy off on a holiday as the major benefit too.

[nonameFF]

Originally posted by captstanm1:
He is wrong wrong wrong..... The fact that the standard is out there and is adopted by NFPA is enough to make you liable. Sure...you dont have to follow it or adopt it...but...you let something happen to a member of your department that is related to that standard, whether it be 1710, 1971, 1851, 1500, 1501.....etc...... See how long it takes some lawyer to sue you (the Chief) and your department.

It's not that you may get sued, but the attorney will be cross examining you with the standard. Generally speaking, the jury is not going to understand that you haven't adopted it.

The organization is the NATIONAL FPA.....

Therefore, in court it will be seen as a "national" standard.

[ENG6511]

I always enjoy the opinions and comments of the "Jail House" lawyers posting on this site.

[SQUAD5]

NFPA IS ONLY A RECCOMMENDATION IT IS NOT A LAW OR STANDARD BUT IT IS MERELY AN OUTLINE OF OPINIONS OF WHAT SOME PEOPLE FEEL IS IDEAL, AND YES THERE ARE SOME GOOD RECCOMMENDATIONS IN THE BOOKS SUCH AS HAVING YOUR BOTTLES HYDRO'D, OR PROPER PPE, BUT COME ON SOME OF 1710 AND I WAS VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT AT FIRST UNTIL I READ THE WHOLE ABOUT 3 TIMES AND THEN REALIZED THAT IN MY DISTRICT WE HAVE 4 BUILDINGS THAT WOULD REQUIRE OUR LADDER SO 1710 SAYS THAT WE NEED TO STAFF OUR TRUCK PERMANTLY WITH 5 GUYS, SO I GUESS SINCE WE HAVE AN AREA THAT DOESN'T HAVE HYDRANTS WE STAFF OUR TANKER ALSO SO ALL THE GUYS TOGETHER 5 ON THE TRUCK 2 ON THE TANKER 5 ON THE ENGINE AND 4 ON THE AMBULANCE SINCE THEY RECCOMMEND THAT THERE ARE 4 ON EVERY EMS CALL, TOTAL 16 PER SHIFT
OUT OF 1 STATION TO ME ISN'T THAT JUST INSAINE. MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST USE COMMON SENSE AND GET PEOPLE THAT CAN MANAGE THEIR BUDGETS, AND BELIVE THAT STAFFING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING INSTEAD OF OH THE 3 YEAR OLD POOL VEICHLE NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BECAUSE FORD HA A SALE ON F-150'S OR EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE AREA HAS A LADDER TRUCK SO WE NEED TO GET THE BIGGEST AND THE BEST EVEN THOUGH WE ONLY HAVE 4 BUILDINGS THAT WE REALLY NEED A LADDER AND WE DON'T WANT THE DEPT THAT WAS GIVING US AUTO AID WITH THEIR LADDER TO COME PLAY WITH US ANYMORE. PEOPLE NEED TO GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES AND SNAP BACK INTO REALITY. JUST TRY COMMON SENSE TRUST ME IT DOESN'T HURT TO THINK.

[Dalmatian90]

The organization is the NATIONAL FPA.....

Um, technically, no.

NFPA aren't initials for anything anymore. NFPA is the whole name of the organization, has been for a year or two now.

Makes you wonder where their focus is.

[ffguy083]

I love that comment so many make... "I don't agree with everything about NFPA, but...."

What exactly is there about an NFPA standard you disagree with? Please provide us with some specific examples....

[kfd232]

While NFPA 1710 may not be something we all can comply with right away, it has given our local association another tool in our quest for a safer community. We currently only staff 3 FF's per engine company (with 1 at each of 2 stations.)
A full shift for us is 8 personnel. 5 at station1, 3 at station 2. We have an engine and a brush truck at station 2. We have 2 engines, a ladder, a brush truck, and a technical rescue truck at station 1.
NFPA 1710 may not be a "miracle drug" for us, but it has allowed us to point to it as an objective of where we would like to be. We had to fight to keep from losing 6 ff's and one station this year. We still have to make it through 2 more votes of the commissioners before it is final that we get to keep them. I feel that NFPA 1710 may have been instrumental in even allowing us to keep our current levels.

Just my thoughts and opinions.