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  • mojo43
    replied
    Additionally, the red-light cameras and speed-cameras have much less of a civil rights issue than a cop stopping a citizen.
    There are constitutional issues with this just as with the DUI roadblocks you mentioned. The original post asked to focus on safey though.

    On safety: You really need to find out how a safety study was done. The more complete ones will monitor a whole neighborhood's traffic patters before and after photo/radar technology was employed.

    One photo radar study found that all the machine did was redistribute the offenders to different streets -- changing the safety on surrounding streets in a downward direction.
    The same study also compared photo-radar and those solar powered radar units that tell you your speed. There was no difference in effectiveness.

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    replied
    OK, I thought I'd stay with the safety issue, but...

    truck197

    A new government report shows redlight and photoradar cameras are designed to entrap drivers to get revenue.

    What branch of the government is Freedom.gov?

    It's Dick Armeys personal website which is probably funded by conficasted taxpayer funds.

    So anyway...

    As usual, Bucks sums things up nicely.

    Now let me say first as a non-hard-working American (at least according to the communists, uh, I mean democrats) who has WAY too much money that fortunatley I don't work hard to earn confiscated from them by the federal government, I can see the cost savings and money making benefit of the camera system. Especially if applied as alleged in this case.

    And I wonder, do the taxpayers of this fair city get a tax break because this is saving them so much money?

    Probably not...

    BUT!

    As a freedom loving American citizen, this is a load of crap. Where do we draw the line on big brother watching over our shoulders?

    No handheld cell phones while driving in NY. The NY state rep. that sponsored that BS said it's just the beginning. What's next, no eating, drinking, listening to the radio (especially changing the channel to evil talk radio), no dingbats digging through their purses or pockets to find the cigs and a lighter to smoke in the comfort of their own personal property, no talking to passengers and sure as hell no kids in the car - way too distracting! Just another way for the government to stick their nose in your house.

    Follow these posted arguements that essentially say "if your doing nothing wrong you've got nothing to fear" to their logical conclusion:

    You're a decent and honorable citizen, if you do nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to fear with the government putting a camera in your house do you?

    Heck, were heading towards being a socialist country where private property will be confiscated, outlawed and everything will belong to the state for the good of the people.

    So really the state is just doing it to make sure you're treating their stuff that you bought with due regard for their interests.

    nomad1085

    If you make a habit of running red lights, you deserve to be caught and punished.

    Then catch me and punish me.

    What is the differnece between a marked unit sitting there watching the intersection from a parking lot nearby or a camera on the wire watching for the same thing?

    Yeah! Right On!

    And what's the difference if a mob kills a guy for raping and murdering a little girl or the state executes him? He's still dead.

    ...the usual jerks who make a habit of running the lights know they WILL get caught, they will not do it anymore, therefore, the intersections would be safer.

    Yeah, I don't know anyone that has a string of parking tickets or speeding tickets or failure to stop tickets either. They always stop after getting caught. Don't they?

    Right...

    The usual jerks will not be stopped by this. The usual jerks aren't stopped by anything short of getting themselves killed - suspending their license, confiscating their cars, telling their mommy, throwing them in jail for five to ten doesn't do squat.

    Now, people that complain about a red light camera have one of two problems, or both:

    1. You probably complain about everything else having to do with authority

    2. You are a jerk and like running red lights


    Yeah, if you don't like red light cams, there's no way you can love the freedoms this country was founded on, just no way.

    Dalmatian90

    If you don't have enough time to clear the intersection, don't enter on yellow.
    Then you don't get a ticket.


    Yessir. Texas Transportation Code 544.007. Traffic-Control Signals in General

    (d) An operator of a vehicle facing only a steady red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line.

    (e) An operator of a vehicle facing a steady yellow signal is warned by that signal that:

    (1) movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated; or
    (2) a red signal is to be given.


    Running the yellow may be stupid, but it's not illegal.

    Camera catches offenders who speed and run red lights. Does so quite cost effectively.

    And in homes they would catch offenders breaking a multitude of laws, murder, child abuse, getting high and underage drinking, doing so quite effectively.

    Hey, there would probably be a great reduction in all crimes if cameras were installed in the home!

    I also figure it's a lot less intrusive on law-biding folks than DWI roadblocks.

    Which should also be outlawed. Hey, we can just put breathalizers in the cars or police cameras in the parking lot.

    We're way to lenient on traffic violations in this country -- and way to much into believing a driver's license is a right and not a privelege.

    Man, you know it!

    DON DELANCEY

    where do the majority of the stupid "I thought I had enough time" accidents occur. You guessed it, intersections.

    Where else would they occur?

    Does it slow people down? NOT....

    All the things you mentioned do not detere here either.

    Dr. Law

    However, to call the red-light cameras a scam is wrong. It is not a scam.

    If the facts as presented in this case showed they were placed a targeted 'low time yellow' lights, that wouldn't be a scam?

    Cops cannot be everywhere.

    Nope, but they should be where the danger lurks and if that's at an intersection busting red light runners then that's where they need to be.

    I just could not take that whole donut shop with me so I could be everywhere!

    - LOL, I know some that have tried, they have a box of two dozen in the right seat

    Properly set up and maintained, those camera systems work.

    Whether they work or not isn't the issue. The freedom we have to move about is the issue. Ultimately the cameras work to limit or at least monitor those freedoms.

    In three months, they collected enough in tickets to pay for a third officer, his training, and his motor.

    Then do it that way.

    Captain Gonzo

    It looks like truck197 got caught by one of the aforementioned cameras and is looking for a place to vent!

    You're probably right!

    SFD-129-3

    I wish my township used them!!

    Then how about the ones Tampa put in service to scan crowds for wanted people? Do you wish your town had those as well?

    FGFD43

    Do you think that if we start carrying a camera in our engines and squads and take pictures of the idiots that do not yield the right of way to us maybe we can raise some money too?

    I wouldn't use it to make money, but as a public service.

    BucksEng91

    You said a mouthful!

    Dalmation90

    are passive always-on monitoring -- the camera monitoring the street for drug dealers, or in the employee bathroom.

    A cops eyes are always-on monitoring, well they're supposed to be...

    Additionally, the red-light cameras and speed-cameras have much less of a civil rights issue than a cop stopping a citizen. The tickets issued by such cameras are issued to the PROPERTY OWNER, who misused or allowed the misuse of his property (the car).

    So now we don't hold the actual offensder liable? Just the person who unwittingly loaned someone their car?

    The actual driver remains perfectly anonymous.

    You mean the actual offender remains anonymous? The guy that committed the crime is not responsible unless he happens to be the owner of the vehicle?

    Dalmation90, you're a smart guy, I love to read the logic and thought that goes into your posts and I hope someday we can break bread. But are you sure this is what you intended to say?

    Not some subjective police fishing trip!

    Which is exactly what these things are.

    Potential solution and less than a $50,000 camera - a $25,000 car with a dummy in it set up as a deterent.


    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

    [ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]

    Leave a comment:


  • Dalmatian90
    replied
    Problem with your arguements Bucks is most of the examples you cite are passive always-on monitoring -- the camera monitoring the street for drug dealers, or in the employee bathroom.

    Red-Light cameras are an active system triggered when a law is violated.

    Additionally, the red-light cameras and speed-cameras have much less of a civil rights issue than a cop stopping a citizen. The tickets issued by such cameras are issued to the PROPERTY OWNER, who misused or allowed the misuse of his property (the car). The actual driver remains perfectly anonymous.

    I have a *huge* problem with police roadblocks for DUI, etc that stop everyone, interview them, look in their cars for violations (alchol or otherwise). Except for the roadblock, most of these motorists had done nothing to get police attention.

    Yes, give me the automatic cameras, that report it *if* and *only if* an actual violation occurs! Not some subjective police fishing trip!

    Leave a comment:


  • BucksEng91
    replied
    jizumper5 -

    Are you saying I'm off topic? I think I'm dead on, actually.

    Maybe you miss the irony.

    Leave a comment:


  • jizumper-5
    replied
    Easy now, we should probably stay on topic. I see that Dalmatian90 has found some actual data to support his opinion what seems to answer truck197's question on increasing safety.

    As for me, if it truly will reduce accidents then that is good. If not, the to the can with it.

    [ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: jizumper-5 ]

    Leave a comment:


  • Chief79
    replied
    I agree with Bucks engine. You know they already put little computer chips in the teeth of children if you want. This is so the coroner can more easily identify them. We put a curfew on ALL teens. Students having to wear uniforms is becoming a big hit. In Texas one legislator even suggested all students would have to serve community service before they could graduate (luckily this did not pass). Graduated drivers licenses for every one under the age of 18. Lets see, tell them when they have to be home, what to wear, work for the community for free, let them drive only at certain hours and in certain places,... Got to love this free country we live in. Lets give up some more of our freedoms in the name of crime prevention!

    Leave a comment:


  • BucksEng91
    replied
    You know, this is such a great idea! Why don't we extend it?

    There are a lot of problems with drugs in North Philadelphia, for example. Let's put cameras up on every streetcorner and midblock, so we can catch those dastardly drug dealers. What's that? How can we be sure that the person who is seen on camera at 3 PM selling drugs is the same one we swoop down on and arrest at 9 PM? Well, hell, all those drug dealers look the same anyway, right? Even if we make a little mistake, hell, it's just one more worthless drug dealer. It all works out in the end, right?

    I understand that shoplifting is a concern to many retailers, and rightfully so. Many of these incidents are traced to people stowing things in their bag (or on their person if a bag is not permitted) while in the dressing room. Let's put cameras in the dressing rooms so we can stem this heinous crime wave! What's that you say? You don't want someone looking at your pin while you try on your new BVDs? Well, son, that's the price we have to pay to get RID of crime. You're not supporting CRIME, now, are you?

    Hey, you know what? Declining productivity is a problem here in these ol' United States. Employers just aren't getting the full 8 hours work for eight hours pay, dammit! So let's put a camera over everyone's work area, in the hallways, and in the bathroom stalls. That way, we can be sure that people are working for a full 8. Or, failing that, we can at least DOCK them for the extra time they spend wiping themselves, or when they arrive a minute late at their desk. Or if they linger too long at the soda machine. Or, if they pick their nose when they should be working!!

    Ooo, ooo! Here's another way we can use technology! Let's set up radar on every inch of the interstate, with little ID doohickeys on every car we make (and retrofitted to those already on the road), like those "EZ Pass" stickers. Then, if you go over 55 MPH for even one second, we can make sure you'll get a big, fat speeding ticket. 'Cause we all know that no safe, law-abiding American ever drives over 55 on the interstate. Hey, this is all in the name of SAFETY, people!!!

    Heyyyyy!!! I just had another brainstorm!!! Why don't we make PEOPLE wear EZ Pass ID stickers, so the police always know where we are? See, that way, if we get lost, we can just call OnStar or something and have them direct us. Or, if our car breaks down in the middle of the Mohave Desert, right, they can send people to rescue us! Or, if we happen to cross a street not at an intersection, the police can write us a jaywalking ticket! Or, if we bike on the wrong side of the road, the police can come and confiscate our bicycles (it's for our own good, trust me!).

    Am I making my point, or should I go on with this stupidity? I could do this all day.

    When Americans begin to give up their individual rights to freedom, privacy, and protection from the electronic eye of the state, it's the beginning of the end, my friends. Pretty soon, we won't even have to get out of bed. Mother Government will take care of everything for us, and make sure we don't do anything that might get us hurt. Doesn't that sound nice?



    [ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: BucksEng91 ]

    Leave a comment:


  • FGFD43
    replied
    Do you think that if we start carrying a camera in our engines and squads and take pictures of the idiots that do not yield the right of way to us maybe we can raise some money too?

    Leave a comment:


  • SFD-129-3
    replied
    Heck, I wish my township used them!! We are on a busy 5 lane highway with 3 lights within 3/4 of a mile. Needless to say, speeding and light running keep my department busy. Personally, I don't feel safe even with the green in my favor. Too many times I have seen the green, let up on the brake and went to pull out only to have to stop for some moron blowing the light at 60+! I live in PA, not jersey where the "Two through on red rule" is in effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    It looks like truck197 got caught by one of the aforementioned cameras and is looking for a place to vent!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Law
    replied
    Two cents

    Okay, about everything everybody else has said has a some merit to it.

    However, to call the red-light cameras a scam is wrong. It is not a scam. Cops cannot be everywhere. I know, I was one, and I just could not take that whole donut shop with me so I could be everywhere! Properly set up and maintained, those camera systems work. They are also great for railroad crossings, too.

    Having been a police officer, then a prosecutor for about 17 years total, I can tell you that at about every stoplight intersection accident I handled or prosecuted one driver was running the red light big time. Stupid, yes, reckless, oh yeah. How do you nail them without being there in person? Use those cameras!

    So what if the camera just also happens to raise some $$$. Maybe they can hire a new officer or two with that increased revenue.

    A Chicago suburb experimented with motorcycle patrols a few years back. They put on two motor officers. In three months, they collected enough in tickets to pay for a third officer, his training, and his motor.

    Cameras at intersections, I support them. Might just make some of our work a little less messy with them there than without.

    (Pontifically speaking from a county with only two red-yellow-green stop lights in the entire county)

    From where the 20th Century is still a few years away, Dr. Law.

    [ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Dr. Law ]

    Leave a comment:


  • DON DELANCEY
    replied
    Red light infraction cameras do work, no doubt about it, and where do the majority of the stupid "I thought I had enough time" accidents occur. You guessed it, intersections. As for radar, try living up here in the great white north in Edmonton Alberta Canada where the cash cow pulled in 12 million in 2000. Does it slow people down? NOT. We are not assesed any demerit points on our licences so people pay the fine and go on their merry way usualy 10-20 over the speed limit I might add. Up here it definitly is nothing but a tax to the driving public, to the folks that say if you dont speed you wont get caught, true enough but the bottom line is that it does not slow people down nor prevent accidents, and the facts speak for themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dalmatian90
    replied
    If you don't have enough time to clear the intersection, don't enter on yellow.

    Then you don't get a ticket.

    If your too stupid to understand, reckless to care, or have another defect that makes you unable to comprehend yellow is warning you it will soon turn red, so don't enter if you can't clear, you deserve the ticket.

    While there is potential for abuse, I suspect that most people are grasping at straws.

    After all what's the difference between a cop and a camera? Camera costs $50,000 and a few thousand a year to run, covering the intersection 24x7. Cop costs $75-100,000 a year or more between salary, benifits, cruiser, training, etc -- for only 40 hours a week when not on training, vacation, or out sick.

    Camera catches offenders who speed and run red lights. Does so quite cost effectively. I also figure it's a lot less intrusive on law-biding folks than DWI roadblocks.

    We're way to lenient on traffic violations in this country -- and way to much into believing a driver's license is a right and not a privelege. Many of the offenses that might bring a few months suspension and few hundred dollars in fines in the US in England brings a few YEARS suspension and a few THOUSAND dollar fine -- damn well suspect you don't try to do it a second time after those penalties!

    Leave a comment:


  • WillB
    replied
    I think the big deal is people going through yellows getting ticketed, re-read the first statement

    Leave a comment:


  • nomad1085
    replied
    I think the point of the "red light" cameras is to catch people running red lights. What is the problem with that? If you make a habit of running red lights, you deserve to be caught and punished. What is the differnece between a marked unit sitting there watching the intersection from a parking lot nearby or a camera on the wire watching for the same thing? The way I see it, if you don't run the lights all the time, you won't have a problem? What is the big deal.

    When they say "improve safety", I think they mean that if the usual jerks who make a habit of running the lights know they WILL get caught, they will not do it anymore, therefore, the intersections would be safer. Again, I think this is a really good idea. They wouldn't run the light if they saw a marked unit sitting there watching. Now there is a camera instead of a marked unit. Whats the difference?

    Now, people that complain about a red light camera have one of two problems, or both:

    1. You probably complain about everything else having to do with authority

    2. You are a jerk and like running red lights

    I still don't see what the problem is?

    Leave a comment:

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