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  • #46
    uh....and another shot to the gut
    Keep Safe!

    Comment


    • #47
      Peeling stickers off road signs?

      I got the same ones you got, except I didn't get my SSN until I was fifteen and started looking for a job.

      And I noticed that you still didn't answer the question regarding the tattle tags...

      [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]
      It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

      Comment


      • #48
        SFD 129:

        How did you pass your academy exam? You obviously don't read very well.

        Mongo is talking about electronic monitoring tags...cripes, I feel silly even having to explain this to you.

        To the best of my (admittedly limited) knowledge, there is nothing about a license plate, driver's license, or Social Security card that allows your movements and every minute action to be tracked (such as doing 27 in a 25 MPH zone). That takes real, actual police officers with probable cause to focus their attention on you.

        But answer the question - do you have a problem with an electronic tag system that automagically hits you with a fine and possibly a moving violation with points *every* time you go 2 MPH over the limit, or kiss the double yellow line with your driver's side tires while evading a pothole, or stop in a "no stopping zone" to run into the bank, just for three obvious examples?

        Or do you react to all thought-provoking questions by calling the questioner a "tool"?

        "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

        Joe Black

        The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

        Comment


        • #49
          Read a little deeper, it may be tough, but try: You are already 'tagged' if you look at how many times we are identified by numbers, not to mention how many times a day we are on a cctv system without ever knowing it. But on the topic at hand, which the last time I looked was Red light traffic cams, TAKE THE DAMN PIC AND SEND THE TICKETS!!!

          how much is the yearly dues to the local ACLU?
          *pokes mongo with a sharp stick*
          It is better to try and fail, then quit and succeed.

          Comment


          • #50
            Mongo and Bucks you guys again have hit the nail RIGHT on the head....lol In my opinon thta alot of these "its ok for safety sake" guys are too young to remeber most of the freedoms that have been taken away from us. They have been chisled away a little bit at a time. Take smoking for example (I am a nonsmoker but if somebody wants to its there right and freedom to do it). It all started with nosmoking in a plane in the 70's I believe now I believe in Boston you can't even smoke in a bar. But hey it was in the name of safety RIGHT.
            As for you *** they could take the fine right out of the affenders social security, because hey they where tagged they must be guilty. RIGHT. I could just imagine our founding fathers are just rolling in their graves
            Just my 2 cents worth.
            Oh yea as for the topic safety just isn't enough of a reason to post a camera at an intersection. If its that dangerous maybe we should redesign the intersection or post an officer there.

            Comment


            • #51
              SFD -

              I'm going to talk slowly now, so you can understand:

              Licence plates do not allow the police to track your whereabouts second by second. Neither do your driver's licence or your Social Insecurity Card. This is obviously NOT the same thing as an electronic device that tracks your whereabouts and activities at every second of your driving day. I don't see how any reasonable (hmmm...I think I'm onto something there!) person could say that these are the same thing.

              By the way, SFD - for that matter, the CIA cannot track you through your tooth fillings, or the little alien implant in your neck, if those things were worrying you too.

              Was that clear enough for you? Are there any big words there that you don't understand?

              Your response, which basically runs along the lines of "Gee, the government already tracks us with numbers" is a mind-numbing but typical response to questions like mongo's. It says that you are one of those non-thinking, emotional gut reaction kinda guys (ooo, the liberals LOVE you!)who will jump right on that "safety at all costs" bandwagon.

              And I notice you have yet to answer the question that mongo posed. What do you think about the "tattler tag" idea? Good, bad, indifferent, what?

              Or do you just want to call me a "tool" and be done with it?

              [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: BucksEng91 ]
              "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

              Joe Black

              The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

              Comment


              • #52
                I can't site the actual study, unfortunately it's not on the web (way too old, I guess) but...

                From a purely safety standpoint, here's a synopsis (from memory):

                US 50 East of Kansas City - semi-controlled access (cross streets) but a 65 MPH speed limit. It also has a lack of weigh stations, so is favored by truck drivers, especially since it's also the direct route to several good sized cities to the SE.

                Several intersections (of other US or state highways) had unusually high traffic accident numbers. So the state did a further study and determined that it wasn't so much people running the red lights (intentionally) as not being able to NOT run them. You see, at 65MPH, you're going 95 feet per second. A 4 second yellow equates to 380 feet you'll travel from the time it goes yellow until the time it goes red. Big catch here, though. An 18 wheeler can take 600 or more feet to stop from 65MPH.

                So they did two things. The yellows are 6 seconds long on the high speed streches, and 1/4 mile before the light (where you'd normally see the "signal ahead" sign) is a yellow light that flashes 5 seconds BEFORE the light itself goes yellow. The result? A 90% reduction in broadsides involving the big trucks!

                Now the catch: The car drivers (car on car accident statistics) weren't affected. Car drivers generally ignored the "pre-warning" signals (figured they were for the trucks that needed the extra stopping room?). They added a second "feature". There's a one second delay between when the yellow light goes red, and when the cross street goes green.

                That solved the problem of the people who 1) saw the cross street yellow and then 2) anticipated the light changing.

                It took a few months, but the locals eventually got used to the delay.

                Ever seen the cross street go yellow and tried to "time it" so you didn't have to stop? You still can, but it's now 7 seconds instead of 4 (the length of the original yellow).

                That extra 1 second of "no man's land" provides a buffer for the (fool, idiot, careless, you pick your fav. adjective) who enters on the yellow without a clear path or sufficient time to get through before the red.

                Now here's what I want to see:

                There's no constitutional issues (that I know of) with this solution, where there definitely are issues with the cameras. So let's see a "head-to-head" study on longer yellows vs. standard length yellows w/cameras.

                If it's even CLOSE to the same, I guarantee reprogramming the lights are cheaper!

                Comment


                • #53
                  RJE -

                  Excellent post. I'm a transportation analyst with an engineering firm in my "day job" and you hit it right on the head with your traffic engineering solution.

                  Better we engineer the traffic controls than the human beings. Humans are notoriously resistant to social engineering schemes.

                  Bravo, brother!
                  "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                  Joe Black

                  The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    SFD-129-3

                    You are already 'tagged' if you look at how many times we are identified by numbers,

                    So then is one more tag, specifically the one I mentioned, OK with you?

                    Quit being a coward and answer the question.

                    not to mention how many times a day we are on a cctv system without ever knowing it.

                    Private corporations have every right to protect their investment - that includes using a cctv system that does not infringe on the rights of their employees or customers (i.e. bathroom cams or dressing room cams). RJE and Hertz Rent-A-Car have evry right to GPS their fleet.

                    But on the topic at hand, which the last time I looked was Red light traffic cams, TAKE THE DAMN PIC AND SEND THE TICKETS!!!

                    Nope, the topic at hand is the "the saftey issue" of having cameras, which was dumped after my first post on this topic.

                    how much is the yearly dues to the local ACLU?

                    I give up, how much?

                    *pokes mongo with a sharp stick*

                    *bites the end off the stick and asks SFD where his mother is*

                    pahoseboy

                    They have been chisled away a little bit at a time.

                    Here you go ""The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
                    --Norman Thomas, six-time Socialist Party presidential candidate and one of the founders of the ACLU.'


                    If its that dangerous maybe we should redesign the intersection or post an officer there.

                    Naw, that makes too much sense and doesn't generate any revenue for the city.

                    BucksEng91

                    I don't see how any reasonable (hmmm...I think I'm onto something there!) person could say that these are the same thing.

                    Two words Bucks - government educated.

                    SFD and other over/under educated people like him only know what the federal government wants them to know about their freedoms and liberties; namely they are open to any interpretation that the feds want to give it in spite of the evidence of the founders intent. After all, the US Constitution is a living document right SFD?

                    RJE

                    In regards to study you mentioned, I think it was 20/20 that just did a program on State Farm and a similar study showing moving the lights, increasing the light time and adding a one second delay from red to green dropped accidents by huge chunks. They're even giving out grants to the cities with the ten worst intersections to make the changes.
                    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I'll answer Mongo's question about an *** (automotive surveillance system)...Hell no!

                      We do not need "babysitters" or "baliffs" to "whack our peepees" (apologies to Monty Python!) everytime someone goes a little over the speed limit, cross the yellow lines etc. My argument against this intrusion...

                      No automotive speedometer system is 100% accurate...even the certified calibration on the speedometer of police cruisers can go out of whack and have to be redone. Even changing the aspect ratio of the tires can throw the original speedometer calibration on the vehicle out of whack.

                      Road conditions. There have been times that I have had to go over the yellow line to avoid hitting a jogger who insists on running in the traffic lane, a bicyclist who feels that the road belongs to him/her, to avoid debris in the road (tree limbs, broken glass, animals, etc.), disabled motor vehicles, work crews in the road, fire apparatus parked on the road, etc.

                      Tag systems are already in use on the NY Thruway, the Massachusetts Turnpike, the New Jersey and Maine Turnpikes. These "tags" are actually transponders that ring up tolls for these roadways. A driver or company sets up an account and deposits an amount of cash. Everytime the vehicle goes through the toll booth, a receiver picks up the signal for that transceiver and the person's account is debited for that amount. The transponders are mounted on the windshield with velcro, and they can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. Here's the rub...someone steals your transponder, which is now part of the ***. The Thief then drives along his/her merry way, driving like a maniac. A little over the speed limit...[i]Ka-ching![/b] a lot over the limit...[i]Ka-ching! Kaching![/b] Meanwhile, you are in your firehouse/cubicle/jobsite etc. and you have no idea your transponder is missing until you get into your car. You report the transponder as stolen...now it's up to you to prove that you weren't out driving around that day...you are already presumed guilty...which is not the basis of our legal system.

                      If I'm not mistaken, in the early 1990's a photo radar system was set up in Phoenix, Arizona just outside of Sky Harbor International Airport. They photographed hundreds of cars driving over the posted limit and billed the owners of said vehicles....Avis, Hertz, Dollar Rent Car , Enterprise, etc. The car rental companies took the matter to court, where the photo radar was found to be illegal and was removed.

                      If the authorities to have red light cameras, they should by law post a warning sign ahead of the intersection in question, such as:

                      Warning...red light cameras in use, violaters will be fined

                      After all, it is posted on our our highways that State Police patrol in unmarked vehicles...Speed checked by aircraft....Radar in use, etc

                      Just another .03 cents worth!

                      [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]
                      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Good post, Cap!

                        None of the "usual suspects" has weighed in yet on the ***, and why they love it so much because it will increase safety for all drivers.

                        I wonder how long it will be before SFD calls me a "tool"?
                        "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                        Joe Black

                        The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Captain Gonzo

                          Hell no!

                          Awright!

                          You also bring up a great point that opens a whole 'nother can of worms:

                          "They photographed hundreds of cars driving over the posted limit and billed the owners of said vehicles....Avis, Hertz, Dollar Rent Car , Enterprise, etc."

                          For the red light camera fans, if a rented car runs a red light and the camera grabs it and rent-a-car gets the ticket say two days after the credit transaction between the renter and Hertz is finalized, who pays the fine?

                          Should the rental agency be allowed to revise the credit transaction without the consent of the customer so as to cover their loss?

                          Should the rental agency contact the renter to get their consent to revise the credit transaction to cover their loss?

                          What if the renter says Hell no!?

                          Should the rental agency require the customer to leave a deposit for say a week after the transaction is complete so as to cover any forth coming costs?

                          BucksEng91

                          I wonder how long it will be before SFD calls me a "tool"?

                          Heck, I'm still trying to figure out what he meant when he called me a tool...
                          It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            RJE good post. This just show there is not always one solution to a problem. I too saw this 20/20 special that was aired not too long ago. I believe State Farm choose the top 10 worst intersections and even offered to fund improvements (like you said some as simple as increasing yellows or moving the location of signals).
                            In the area I am from (and SFD) we have a light that has a warning prior to it, as well as delayed greens and such. In know this is a bad hill for trucks because of the multiple truck run off spots and history of accidents. I wonder how available information is on this intersection.

                            (PS tool = shmuck = (fill in the blank) )
                            Keep Safe!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Mongo -

                              "Tool" is a lame attempt at insult. At my firehouse, we've graduated to calling each other "Home Depot", because "tool" doesn't capture the essence of what we're trying to say...

                              SFD is trying to act like a tough guy, in other words...
                              "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                              Joe Black

                              The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Mongo (and others)

                                Guess what: Two of those 20/20 top 10 worst intersections (based on State Farms' accident claims BTW) are in my town!

                                Now here's the "rest of the story" on those particular intersections.

                                71st and Memorial. Both streets are 3 thru lanes each way. Both have double left turn lanes. All 4 directions also have a right turn only lane. The majority of accidents (according to Tulsa PD) are left turners sideswipint the car in the next lane over (drifting out of their lane), Right on Red failures to yield (mostly looking left (at thru traffic) and getting hit by a left turner who was facing them), and failure to clear the intersection (enter on yellow, can't make it thru, and get back end clipped by a green light anticipater).

                                51st and Memorial - same problems as 71st, except it's only 2 lanes for thru traffic each direction (instead of 3), but (BIG BUT) there they allow left turn yield on green! People enter the intersection on the green to turn left, wait for the yellow (which gets used by impatient people who speed up instead of stopping), then get broadsided by the guy who comes barreling up to the light (sees yellow on the cross street) and times it to not have to slow down.

                                My proposed solutions for these intersections (both of which are candidates for Tulsa's proposed camera experiment!) are longer yellows, delayed greens, and (for 51st) no left on green (just on the left arrow). Maybe no right on red, too?

                                Both of these are in areas w/heavy commercial (71st and Mem. is the largest shopping mall in Tulsa) and there is a lot of truck traffic (deliveries and such). A contributing factor in a lot of the wrecks is obstructed vision. In this case, the trucks have to be there, but the cars need to be more careful about "zipping around them" when they can't see past them 'til half way through the "zip". Or change the lights.

                                Comment

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