One in One out

[E229Lt MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close E229Lt]

Question:

You are part of a portable ladder team of two at a first floor, private dwelling fire. You are assigned to ladder and VES the second floor. You and your partner ladder a second story window, due to the absence of a porch roof.

The window is intactand closed.

1. Where do you place the tip of the ladder?

2. Once the window is cleared, can one member enter and await the second members arrival?

3. Should the second member reposition the ladder before entering?

4. Would this violate OSHA policy?

[Plug-Ugly Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close Plug-Ugly]

Using both members, I would drop the tip into the top of the window to break it out, then reposition the butt until the tip is just below the sill. Now both can climb up one after another. The first one up can clean out any glass shards and enter. Because VES involves searching only one room and then exiting, and most second floor rooms are relatively small, such as average bedrooms, I would like to leave one FF on the ladder while the other conducts the search, staying in voice communication or using a personal search rope. The reason I like leaving one on the ladder is for orientation purposes as well as for easier victim removal should one be found. It is also easier for only one FF having to bail out should things go bad. The FF on the ladder can assist his escaping partner.

If the area to be searched is known to be large, then both should enter.

I don't think that this violates 2 in, 2 out unless these are the only two members on scene.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Plug-Ugly ]

[Lewiston2FF Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lewiston2FF]

Good question. I have often wondered that myself. The way I was taught was ladder the window on the upwind side. Take the glass and then reposition the ladder before entering. This gives me some quick egress if things get bad. I also was taught that the partner can stay at the ladder if the room is small enough to remain in voice contact.
I know it doesnt make sence to get down when you were already right next to the window but, when the stuff hits the fan while my partner is moving the ladder I wouldnt have very many options.

[bfd1071 Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close bfd1071]

IFSTA teachs you to place the ladder opposite wind direction...We just raise the tip a few rungs and place it into the window. This will take out the window, then we have a guy climb the ladder and take out the rest of the window. When the window is taken out a few rungs should be left in the window for those to see.

[rescue2bob Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close rescue2bob]

well lou since i'm from rescue i don't put up that many ladders anymore(LOL), but i like them placed just at the sill so that i could get out fast if its needed. i don't understand any of this up wind down wind stuff ,it just wastes time get in get out.

[ALSfirefighter MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close ALSfirefighter]

I'm with Plug. I would put the tip through the window to take it out. Reposition the tip right under the window. Then climb up and clear the window and sill. The next step, falls under the "it all depends" catch-all. If conditions were unfavorable, or deteriorating rapidly, I'd go in, shut the door, do my primary and get out. Leaving my partner at the top of the ladder. If conditions on the second floor were okay, I'd have my partner come in with the Water Can, and we would begin to search the rest of the second floor. This would occur as soon as we were beginning in the room above the fire, in order to get additional ladders to all sides in the event that conditions then deteriorate, or the attack team loses control of the stairwell. One of us would then search, while the other would stay at the door to observe conditions in the hallway.

The only thing I disagree with is leaving the ladder a few rungs into the window. It has been my experience that it prohibits getting back on the ladder, even more so if rapid egress is needed. Whenever ladders are thrown to the upper floors, their positions should be communicated to the interior crews.
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The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

[mongofire_99 Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close mongofire_99]

1. Where do you place the tip of the ladder?

At or just under the sill.

2. Once the window is cleared, can one member enter and await the second members arrival?

If there is a reasonable chance of rescue, why not?

3. Should the second member reposition the ladder before entering?

Not if it was placed properly initially. If not then yes he should repostion it.

4. Would this violate OSHA policy?

No, 2/2 does not apply when there is a reasonable chance of a rescue.

[E229Lt MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close E229Lt]

R2Bob,

You know Jack Huttle?

[ADSNWFLD MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close ADSNWFLD]

1. Just below the sill
2. I've always practiced going to the door and closing it. Then search the room and get out. At the next window my partner can search while I heel the ladder.
3. Only if necessary, but if positioned at the sill to begin with it is usually OK.
4. No OSHA violation because you are attempting a rescue.

Just as a reminder, when venting for life as done in VES the fire will be drawn towards you so it's important to get in quick and close the door to that room. VES in general should only be preformed by experienced firefighters, this is no place for a probie because you are operating opposite the advancing hoselines and unprotected. (no hoseline)

[E229Lt MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close E229Lt]

I am seeing what, I think, is a misinterpretation of the OSHA standard here.

Mongo, "No, 2/2 does not apply when there is a reasonable chance of a rescue."


ADSN, "No OSHA violation because you are attempting a rescue."

Is there a KNOWN life hazard here or are we doing VES of the second floor? If it is the latter, we must abide by the 2/2. If we are entering a room with a reported person inside we can use a single person entry.

All of our searches are rescue attempts, most of them are negative. I don't believe these searches can justify entry into an IDLH outside of OSHA standards.

As for the teams laddering and entering, as long as they remain in visual and/or voice contact I believe they are in compliance.

Ladder position: I find laddering alongside the window, with the tip at, or just below the top of the window level is best for vent and entry. With the ladder placed up-wind, the member can climb to window level, clear the window and step off onto the sill. Once he is inside, member two can lower the ladder to sill level and ROLL the ladder to the sill.

ADSN's point of closing the hallway door is right on the money. I would add, after searching the room, clear all the windows and, if possible within safe limits, reopen the door prior to exiting via the ladder. This will provide a vent for the hallway and the members operating below.

JMHO

[bfd1071 Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close bfd1071]

***The only thing I disagree with is leaving the ladder a few rungs into the window. It has been my experience that it prohibits getting back on the ladder, even more so if rapid egress is needed. Whenever ladders are thrown to the upper floors, their positions should be communicated to the interior crews. **

You make a valid point ALS, but to tell the truth how many messages do you really hear? With a rung or 2 in the window a firefighter can see which window is laddered. For me, I have used ladders to get out in a hurry, found that it did not hinder my escape. Infact was glad to see it....

[ALSfirefighter MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close ALSfirefighter]

BFD,

It is normally routine practice for us to get ladders to the upper floors on all 4 sides, and the Truck officers send a message to the interior advising that such has been done. Normally we attempt to put it at a window that's closest to the center of that side, that way you have half the distance either way to get it to another window if need be.

I understand what your saying also about the rungs, but I and many other guys have found it very easy to get pockets, straps and anything else caught on the beams when they protrude through the window like that. So that's why we don't. Even if the ladder wasn't there, it still would get there fast enough for me to get out, with the door shut and when all else fails, the old fashioned window sill balance act with one leg out, and your head out against the wall for a little more heat protection. Now when the roof is laddered, the more the merrier!! (We just love our overhead power lines here)

============================================
The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

[rescue2bob Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close rescue2bob]

YES LOU I KNOW JACK, HE BROKE ME IN (GENTLY I MIGHT ADD), I DON'T KNOW HOW I WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT WITHOUT HIM AND SOME OTHER GREAT FIREMEN WHO TOOK THE TIME TO SHOW A SNOT NOSED KID ABOUT WHAT WE DO.

[e53NSB Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close e53NSB]

I agree with pretty much what everybody has said, except for one item. It is very important to stay disciplined when performing VES. The object is to stay in that one bedroom that is being searched and get right out, don't get caught up trying to search the whole upper floor, thats not the objective of VES.
Just a quick note: If your Department uses positive pressure ventilation with fire attack, Please do not use it with VES, this will put the outside team in extreme danger. PPV is a major contraindication of VES.

[mongofire_99 Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close mongofire_99]

I am seeing what, I think, is a misinterpretation of the OSHA standard here.

Mongo, "No, 2/2 does not apply when there is a reasonable chance of a rescue."

ADSN, "No OSHA violation because you are attempting a rescue."

Is there a KNOWN life hazard here or are we doing VES of the second floor? If it is the latter, we must abide by the 2/2. If we are entering a room with a reported person inside we can use a single person entry.

All of our searches are rescue attempts, most of them are negative. I don't believe these searches can justify entry into an IDLH outside of OSHA standards.

No misinterpretation. Both ADSN/WFLD and I clearly pointed out that there has to be a reasonable chance for a rescue.

29CFR 1910.134 (g)(4)(i) states that "At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

And

"(g)(4)(ii) At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere;"

Then:

"Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled."

In the preamble OSHA states:

Finally, the notes to paragraph (g)(4) clarify that these requirements are not intended to interfere with necessary rescue operations, and the extent to which the standby personnel can perform other functions.

(And as a side note for this discussion, that it only applies in the following states:

Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Virgin Islands, Washington, and Wyoming.)

Agreed you could split hairs on the VES, but I think the arguement could be made as it is a 'best judgement' call based on the situation observed on arrival. In my most humble opinion, the note stating that nothing is meant to preclude a rescue would apply.

Is it the smart thing to do in terms of firefighter safety is another issue...