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Can you believe this Judge's Ruling!!!

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  • gordoffemt
    replied
    Of all these posts so far, no one has mentioned the fact that beards, dreadlocks, braids, ponytails, and such take away from the professional look that most firefighters adhere to. Take a picture of a clean-cut, well-groomed firefighter and one of a bearded, dreadlocked, rastafarian firefighter to a group of school kids and ask them which one looks more like a firefighter. I know that this is making a stereotypical judgment based on looks alone but the fact is clear. Firefighters must display a look of professionalism while on the job, and unless you're in Jamaica, the dreads don't fly.

    The safety issue speaks for itself. I'm all for accepting people regardless of race, religion, etc, etc, and I'll teach my kids to do the same. But come on, long hair and beards on the fireground. Not in my city.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeMZ191
    replied
    This is not an NFPA issue, it's OSHA's Respiratory Protection standard. OSHA also mandates that you wear that stupid heavy air pack in an IDLH atmosphere. Just leave it on the truck, your higher power will protect you.

    A note to my DCFD brothers, have all of your members who are Catholic file a class action lawsuit because you're being held to a higher standard based on your religious beliefs. That's discrimination too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fiyah
    replied
    I'm appalled at the reaction of what people have put on this forum. You think that NFPA is the law of the land and it's not. It's only a guideline for depts to follow. Most depts across the U.S. would go bankrupt trying to follow every thing that NFPA puts out. Remember this country was founded on the freedom of religion and will always stay that way. You can't discriminate against anyone on that basis. You can get a good seal on your mask if you properly don it, so don't say it can't be done because it can.

    Titan, thanks for a sensible reaction to this whole thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • firedog11ku
    replied
    I do agree that all of the PC crap has gone too far, but I have a question that isn't obvious to me. Do most departments have a "no facial hair policy". In Nebraska everyone has one. I have heard that in other areas a quarter-inch policy is the norm. I am curious and feedback would be great

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    replied
    Whats next, making the military easier bc some doughnut stuffer can't pass the pt

    test?


    YES! But they're saying it's demeaning...

    Check it out!
    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010709-30466182.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • NFDLT55
    replied
    The judge made a very bad decision. Hopefully the department will appeal it to a higher court as standard in our justice system. The U.S. constiution says all Americans have the right to practice religion, and every American knows this. But what many Americans don't know is: A religion or any practice granted to the American public CAN be revoked if it has the potential to the well-being of an individual. In our fire service a bad seal on the SCBA facepiece has potential to endanger the well-being of others. These include, fellow firefighters, and the civilians we are sworn to protect. Obviously the judge didn't do ANY research on this topic and may have been partial and had his mind made up before the case even started. I cant believe some of the crap that goes on. Especially this!

    [ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: NFDLT55 ]

    Leave a comment:


  • ntvilleff
    replied
    What about the guy that's teamed up with him(the bearded one) when he(the bearded one) goes down because he seared his lungs when he sucked 500 degree air due to a bad seal.
    Now the other guy is not only faced with a dangerous situation alone, now he's gotta drag the (bearded one's) @ss out of there on top of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Titan4016
    replied
    Truckie,

    You said these men dont know the risks they are taking by not cutting their hair. I beg to differ with you on this one. Think about it, this matter was a long drawn out drawn out legal battle. Every fire official and their mother was telling them of the inherent risks of having excessive facial hair. So if anyone knows of the risks I think its them. You also said these men should have to file some sort of waiver. If my memory serves me correctly I think that they already did. I may be wrong on this. Also you said if they die in the line of duty their families would sue. I can almost guarantee you that the families would not sue due to the fact that they know what firemen are risking. By suspending the men and issuing the necessary warnings DCFD has covered their butts in the matter. They can easily say "Hey, we did everything we could in the matter but they wore the facial hair anyway. They knew what they were doing, we are sorry but our hands are clean." But hopefully it will never resort to that, because no fireperson wants to see another fireperson die. And about your point of who would i pick to back me up when @#$% hits the fan, honestly I would pick whomever I could trust with my life, be it a man with a beard or a "true brother" as you call them. And lastly have you ever missed work or gone into work late because any religious observance day. I know alot of people who have, including myself. Which just goes to show that religion does affect the workplace.
    On a brighter note Truckie, you have brought up a good topic that has spurred alot of good debating. Good job!! This board needs more posts like this. I get tired of all of the little forum rivalries people have. Its B.S., anyway enough of my rambling. Take it easy.

    Leave a comment:


  • jeg532
    replied
    i agree with larry cook on this one. these guys chose to be firefighters, no one made them choose this profession, if they want long hair and beards maybe mcdonalds is hiring,

    Leave a comment:


  • larry cook
    replied
    it is the same story. people want to become a firefighter yet they want every one to obey the rules and regulations but they do not have to. it is like someone moving next door to an airport and complaining about the noise. These firefighters have an oblication to the citizens they protect. I believe that the Lord would overlook some of them not having beards. after all the citizens who they are protecting are God's children too.

    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Truckie5553
    replied
    Originally posted by Titan4016:
    Playing devil's advocate here, I must disagree what for the most part has been the general agreement. Religion is a very touchy subject. Just because our religions dont say we have to grow our hair out, who are we to condemn another mans religion for its beliefs? Truckie, calling them "morons", how grown up is that? Just because you dont agree with something there is no need for name calling. I dont agree with you in this case, but am i calling you out of your name? More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair. Overall this is a very touchy subject that i am sure we will be talking about in the futer to come. As i said earlier though, these men are our brothers, and they put their butts on the line all of the time. So regardless of religion I think we need to accept them as such, our brother firemen.
    null More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair.

    I really dont think that they do know the risks. If they did then this wouldnt be an issue. Tell me this, if you had to have these guys, who like it or not are a serious safety issue, backup you when the **** hits the fan or someone who can follow the guidelines set like a true brother should, which would you pick.

    they put their butts on the line all of the time.

    Sure they put their butts on the line all of the time, and every crew member who goes in with them is being put on the line as well. These guys are going to get hurt and then lets see whats going to happen. You are gonna hear their families screaming lawsuit cause they was put in harms way. This is just another group trying to see just how far they can push the system and they are using the religion platform to push it.

    Im sorry if you feel like im not acting like an adult because i used the word moron, but think about it, these guys knew the rules when they came in and still fought to change them. What are they gonna change next that doesnt go along with their religion. Religion has a place, but it doesnt belong as a major issue in the work place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    I hear that the Taliban in Afghanistan is looking for firefighters...full beards allowed by Islamic law!

    Jewish firefighters can wear Nomex yarmulkes!

    Sikh firefighters can wear Nomex turbans!

    My opinion...if a firefighter feels the need to have facial hair or have long hair for religious reasons, and it interferes with the PPE issued by the Department, let them sign a waiver stating that they are aware of the hazards posed by full facial hair and they accept full responsibility for death and injury as a result of their decisions, thereby absolving their employers, brother and sister firefighters and the manufacturers of the PPE of any responsibility for their injury and/or death.

    Leave a comment:


  • Titan4016
    replied
    Playing devil's advocate here, I must disagree what for the most part has been the general agreement. Religion is a very touchy subject. Just because our religions dont say we have to grow our hair out, who are we to condemn another mans religion for its beliefs? Truckie, calling them "morons", how grown up is that? Just because you dont agree with something there is no need for name calling. I dont agree with you in this case, but am i calling you out of your name? More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair. Overall this is a very touchy subject that i am sure we will be talking about in the futer to come. As i said earlier though, these men are our brothers, and they put their butts on the line all of the time. So regardless of religion I think we need to accept them as such, our brother firemen.

    Leave a comment:


  • BucksEng91
    replied
    The issue is simply this - the reg was in place BEFORE these guys joined. This is not something that NFPA or the DCFD just came up with on a whim one day to f*ck with people.

    I get tired of people making that tired old religion argument - "gee, if the NFPA comes up with something that conflicts with Jewish or Christian beliefs..." Well, you know what? I hold the human resources bozos and the spineless officers most responsible...the first group for hiring people who are not in compliance with department regs, and the second group for not enforcing an "on the books" safety regulation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Truckie5553
    replied
    Originally posted by toneloc177:
    unless medically instructed or required, no one should be removed from any aspect of the fire service because of their religious beliefs!

    when EMS in NYC stated that everyone needed to be clean shaven below the lip line, it raised hell. people w/ religious or medical complications were forced to shave, for fear of disciplinary reprocutions. That ain't right either.

    DON'T LET ANYONE PUSH YOU AROUND!!!

    (I never had a problem getting a seal when I had a gotti in my younger years)
    (I never had a problem getting a seal when I had a gotti in my younger years)

    We are not talking about a gotti here..we are talking about full facial beards. A BIG DIFFERENCE. And the medical thing, there isnt on yet, but if those guys see any fire in any quanity, one of them is gonna get burned.

    Leave a comment:

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