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  • George Wendt, CFI
    Guest replied
    You know, I was right with you on the Webster thing. But what most of you are proving here is that you don't know squat about law enforcement or the tactical decisions that must be made to protect EVERYONE involved.

    There isn't one single solitary thing about this incident that you can compare to Ruby Ridge. I may even agree that law enforcement screwed up aspects of that incident. But not this one. I don't even think that you could classify this as a standoff. As far as I could see, they backed off and attempted to use an older sister and one brother who left the house to negotiate a peaceful ending to this. And what happened? They had a peaceful ending.

    Bullets travel just as quickly and kill just as fast if they are fired by an adult or a child. That cop does the ssame type of job that you do and wants to go home at the end of the shift just as badly as you do. He needs to consider his personal safety before he commits to an operation. If the kids had guns, the cops had certain things they had to do.

    Everything that I read about this indicated that Mom was nuts and the kids were in danger. There was a relatively rapid deterioration in the family, a failure to attend school and a deckine in hygiene in health. These are all tell tale signs that these kids need help and need it now. The State appears to be helping the family now. If they can get the Mom straightened out and get the family back together, I am sure they will. The government conspiracy nuts aside, the cops are not in the business of breaking up families and taking kids away for the fun of it. On the contrary, the cops have a whole lot less problems with kids from intact families than they do broken homes.

    Time to stick to FF and leave the law enforcement to the professionals.

    Leave a comment:


  • FEOBob
    Guest replied
    As someone geographicly closer to the supposed standoff, it has been totally blown out of proportion by the media.

    The father had long term medical, and likely mental problems, chiefly paranoia.

    The mother has been diagnosed with mental problems, including paranoia.

    Bonner County authorities had tried for the last few years to keep this family together, including finding them help in paying their property taxes. They acted fully within Idaho state law, which is generally more protective of private property owners than most states. Indeed, since the resolution of this incident, members of the County Commision are approaching the Idaho Legislature to change these laws to give any excess moneys from these type of property auctions back to the former owners. Bonner County expects that this situation will cost them nearly half a million dollars to resolve, including the costs to the Sherrif's department to resolve the situation, and foster care and counseling for the five kids.

    The Bonner County Sherrif had a duty to look after the safety of the five children after the arrest of their mother, who was arrested on child neglect charges. He did this the best way available when the kids were reportedly armed, and with the couple dozen "wild" dogs about. He worked to talk them out without any violence or threat. With patience, this strategy worked.

    The media have totally gone on a frenzy about this. If this same situation had happened in say Michigan, rather than N. Idaho, none of us would have heard about it. Indeed, the "standoff" lasted two days longer than it needed to because a local TV helicopter kept buzzing the kids in their house and scared them.

    This is NOT the Return to Ruby Ridge.

    [This message has been edited by FEOBob (edited 06-09-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • hot DAMN
    Guest replied
    I really just don't get it.. If you are in the Fire Department, you are a PART of that government that you are sooooo afraid of. As far as Randy Weaver deal goes, his wife was not murdered, the Sheriff Deputy and The US Marshal were murdered, what happened to the Weavers is what happens when you hole up in the middle of the woods with hundreds of weapons and break numerous laws and are a white supremacist....live by the gun...die by the gun. Also, do you REALLY think that the Sniper was attempting to kill her? Of course not, he was doing his job, firing back after two of his men went down. Get you head out of the sand and realize that as other people stated, the government is made up of everyday people like you and me that go to work and do their jobs, just like us, and they are NOT out to get us.
    If you still feel this way, their is a term for this, its called "Paranoid Schizophrenia" and you should see a licensed psychiatrist...

    stay safe and SANE ;->

    Leave a comment:


  • gah74
    Guest replied
    Althea...I read daysleepers post...What did I miss? So she thinks the gov't made her husband ill?? I don't think I contradicted that anywhere.

    [This message has been edited by gah74 (edited 06-07-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • Althea Forhan
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by gah74:
    This is the kind of house you go into as a paramedic and besides being scared to death, you think someone needs to get in here and save these kids.

    The government was killing her husband??? Dad was already dead from MS.
    I was speaking in the past tense as in "I thought the government was responsible for my husband's MS, so being somewhat illogical I told my children the government was evil." Scine it looks like you didn't read Daysleeper's post, I recomend that you do.

    Althea

    Leave a comment:


  • gah74
    Guest replied
    First of all...I apologize to everybody for clogging up the forum w/ a totally non-FD issue.

    I don't know the in's-and-out's of Ruby Ridge, but I do know that government agencies are run by human beings. I don't really feel like reading the book. No offense. I don't doubt that what you're citing is true. It still doesn't change my opinion. Government agencies are involved in good things and bad things...and so long as humans are running government there will be some that are corrupt, some that are lazy, some that are murderers, etc... But, there will be many more who are sincere, honest, hard working, and dedicated people.

    I don't feel like the government wrote the kids off in Waco. I don't believe that the outcome was desirable and if they had it to do over perhaps they would do something else. Don't forget who ACTUALLY killed the kids...is wasn't the gov.

    One thing I feel certain about is that our government and all its flaws is still my favorite government relative to a lot of other ones around the world.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eng522ine
    Guest replied
    gah...

    "...they waited outside for months. The tanks didn't kill those kids anyway. The sick bastard and his followers did, yet there is a loud minority that is hell bent on defending David Koresh and the Branch Dividians and laying all the blame on ATF and FBI. I don't get it."

    Well, as opposed to waiting any longer they decided it would just be better to write the kids off? This is not what we have government for. Anybody that would even attempt to argue that Koresh was anything but utterly insane, might want to think of getting themselves evaluated as well and I'm NOT defending him. What I'm saying here is that the long-term well being of the children is what the government SHOULD have been concerned about, it's readily apparent that the children were the least of their concerns.

    I would like to make one recommendation to you ... read the book about Ruby Ridge by Jerry Spence (he's the one that defended Randy Weaver). You just might start seeing things from a different point of view. What our government did there was SICKENING! They stooped to the level of a 3rd world dictatorship, they entrapped the man, murdered his wife (who happened to be holding a baby when she was shot, not a gun), they took shots at his son, and dammit, they killed his dog! If you actually read the book maybe you'll become as distrustful as I am about our government and it's actions. I realize that Ruby Ridge was a federal blunder, not a local PD one, but try to remember these are the kinds of things these kids have heard about the government (sad part is, they're true).

    Also, for the record, I must thankfully note that you all have showed an admirable level of maturity in not stooping to the all-to-common bashing that takes place in the forums. It's nice to be able to disagree with someone and not have to regress to playground insults and slams. Stay safe all.

    [This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-07-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-07-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • gah74
    Guest replied
    eng522ine...
    "Think about it, isn't the government trying to take their freedom away? They're standing up for the only thing they know, their family and each other. I'm not saying that they're going about it in a mature way but, let's remember these ARE children."

    ...the children aren't under arrest and they aren't taking the childrens freedom away. Mom was under arrest. Were the police supposed to leave the kids there to fend for themselves???

    "I also find it somewhat interesting that we have heard from no side other than the govt/PD. Amazing what you can get people to believe when the only thing they have to listen to is YOU!"

    ...not true. Mom is being plenty vocal along with her lawyers you just haven't noticed...and who is bashing the 2nd amendment here??

    "As far as Waco goes, lets not forget, BATF sent tanks in when they KNEW there were children inside. Now there's real compassion and caring for the well being of children. I say don't trust the government as far as you can throw the whole hypocritical, corrupt beaurocracy."

    ...they waited outside for months. The tanks didn't kill those kids anyway. The sick bastard and his followers did, yet there is a loud minority that is hell bent on defending David Koresh and the Branch Dividians and laying all the blame on ATF and FBI. I don't get it.


    Leave a comment:


  • Eng522ine
    Guest replied
    hot DAMN... Think about it, isn't the government trying to take their freedom away? They're standing up for the only thing they know, their family and each other. I'm not saying that they're going about it in a mature way but, let's remember these ARE children.

    I also find it somewhat interesting that we have heard from no side other than the govt/PD. Amazing what you can get people to believe when the only thing they have to listen to is YOU! Nevermind the fact that our liberal media loves nothing more than to be able to bash the 2nd Amendment and all that believe in it. I'm just extremely suspicious of the entire deal.

    As far as Waco goes, lets not forget, BATF sent tanks in when they KNEW there were children inside. Now there's real compassion and caring for the well being of children. I say don't trust the government as far as you can throw the whole hypocritical, corrupt beaurocracy.

    Before the accusations start flying...
    NO, I'm NOT anti-government
    NO, I'm NOT anti-democracy
    NO, I'm NOT some type of extremist
    NO, I do NOT believe that scumbag that blew up the federal building was ANY type of a hero.

    I just don't trust what we have let our government become. Stay safe all.

    [This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-06-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • gah74
    Guest replied
    This is the kind of house you go into as a paramedic and besides being scared to death, you think someone needs to get in here and save these kids.

    The government was killing her husband??? Dad was already dead from MS. The kids were raising themselves because mom would hardly get out of bed except when she needed a beer. The police didn't initiate a standoff w/ children. They were going to the house to get custody of them and the oldest one allegedly yelled "Get the guns" and then set the dogs out after the police. At this point the police can't just leave. They are more or less responsible for the kids (i.e. mom in custody, dad is dead). So you don't like the way mom was lured out of the house? okay fine. Maybe they should have come in breaking down the doors w/ an arrest warrant. Maybe they should have had a standoff w/ mom in the house w/ the kids. Hey she might have even pulled a Waco on them...then we could have blamed the police for that too. Or maybe we shouldn't have done a damn thing...then when the kids died from abuse/neglect we can all sit there scratching our heads wondering what it was we could have done to help. Or maybe we should have just bought mom some groceries and got her on food stamps. Maybe we should have bought her a six pack of Coors Light. Hell, I don't know. Next year you can rent a U-Haul and park it in front of the local police station.

    Leave a comment:


  • Althea Forhan
    Guest replied
    Uh, you just did.
    Now let's think about this--mother thinks government is killing her husband. Tells children government is out to kill them and/or take their freedom. Then mom gets arrested, and the government trys to take away what the children know and love--their mom and their way of life. If you're one of the kids, yes, you think of that as proving mom right. I don't agree with the children's upbringing, but the law enforcement didn't help themselves by doing what they did.

    Althea

    Leave a comment:


  • gah74
    Guest replied
    I agree w/ hot damn.

    It's starting to sound like a bunch of paranoid militia people in here. Waco??? give me a break. David Koresh was a total damn psycho. Oh well, I'm not even going to get into this.

    Leave a comment:


  • hot DAMN
    Guest replied
    you are all crazy!!!!!! How could you all possibly blame the police in this matter? This is firmly the fault of the type of WACKO parents that teach their kids that Timothy McVeigh is a WAR HERO, and that the government is only out to kill them and steal their freedom!! God I have heard some STUPID arguments on this forum, but this one takes the cake!!!!!!!! The police are FIRMLY in the right. They handled this very well considering that wild dogs were set on them and that their were armed criminals, be they children of not were involved. I haev nothing but respect for the level of restraint they showed in RESCUING these children.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtdave2002
    Guest replied
    eng522ine,

    I cant agree with you more. The government needs to help this family, not put them in jail. When we were kids how many times did our parents barely have enough money to put food on our table. Does this constitute the police or sheriff dept to take them to jail? Nothing ****es me off more than the government throwing their weight around with people that cant defend themselves. Who's to say that we aren't next. Keep the comments coming.

    Thanks,
    Sgt. Dave

    [This message has been edited by sgtdave2002 (edited 06-05-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • Althea Forhan
    Guest replied
    Exactly. The first things that came to mind when I heard about this were "Waco" and "Ruby Ridge".

    Daysleeper:
    Sure, the 15 year old may have had a gun pointed at the officers, but he could have had one pointed at the six year old too.

    It sounds like the mother was quite paranoid and/or grieving. You have to remember, they're just children. They need a whole different kind of management--Special Tactics, not Special Weapons. The negotiation process is completly different than it is with adults. They only wanted to stay together in a place they knew. Perfectly logical.

    Althea

    Leave a comment:

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