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  • #16
    First of all...I apologize to everybody for clogging up the forum w/ a totally non-FD issue.

    I don't know the in's-and-out's of Ruby Ridge, but I do know that government agencies are run by human beings. I don't really feel like reading the book. No offense. I don't doubt that what you're citing is true. It still doesn't change my opinion. Government agencies are involved in good things and bad things...and so long as humans are running government there will be some that are corrupt, some that are lazy, some that are murderers, etc... But, there will be many more who are sincere, honest, hard working, and dedicated people.

    I don't feel like the government wrote the kids off in Waco. I don't believe that the outcome was desirable and if they had it to do over perhaps they would do something else. Don't forget who ACTUALLY killed the kids...is wasn't the gov.

    One thing I feel certain about is that our government and all its flaws is still my favorite government relative to a lot of other ones around the world.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gah74:
      This is the kind of house you go into as a paramedic and besides being scared to death, you think someone needs to get in here and save these kids.

      The government was killing her husband??? Dad was already dead from MS.
      I was speaking in the past tense as in "I thought the government was responsible for my husband's MS, so being somewhat illogical I told my children the government was evil." Scine it looks like you didn't read Daysleeper's post, I recomend that you do.

      Althea

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      • #18
        Althea...I read daysleepers post...What did I miss? So she thinks the gov't made her husband ill?? I don't think I contradicted that anywhere.

        [This message has been edited by gah74 (edited 06-07-2001).]

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        • #19
          I really just don't get it.. If you are in the Fire Department, you are a PART of that government that you are sooooo afraid of. As far as Randy Weaver deal goes, his wife was not murdered, the Sheriff Deputy and The US Marshal were murdered, what happened to the Weavers is what happens when you hole up in the middle of the woods with hundreds of weapons and break numerous laws and are a white supremacist....live by the gun...die by the gun. Also, do you REALLY think that the Sniper was attempting to kill her? Of course not, he was doing his job, firing back after two of his men went down. Get you head out of the sand and realize that as other people stated, the government is made up of everyday people like you and me that go to work and do their jobs, just like us, and they are NOT out to get us.
          If you still feel this way, their is a term for this, its called "Paranoid Schizophrenia" and you should see a licensed psychiatrist...

          stay safe and SANE ;->

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          • #20
            As someone geographicly closer to the supposed standoff, it has been totally blown out of proportion by the media.

            The father had long term medical, and likely mental problems, chiefly paranoia.

            The mother has been diagnosed with mental problems, including paranoia.

            Bonner County authorities had tried for the last few years to keep this family together, including finding them help in paying their property taxes. They acted fully within Idaho state law, which is generally more protective of private property owners than most states. Indeed, since the resolution of this incident, members of the County Commision are approaching the Idaho Legislature to change these laws to give any excess moneys from these type of property auctions back to the former owners. Bonner County expects that this situation will cost them nearly half a million dollars to resolve, including the costs to the Sherrif's department to resolve the situation, and foster care and counseling for the five kids.

            The Bonner County Sherrif had a duty to look after the safety of the five children after the arrest of their mother, who was arrested on child neglect charges. He did this the best way available when the kids were reportedly armed, and with the couple dozen "wild" dogs about. He worked to talk them out without any violence or threat. With patience, this strategy worked.

            The media have totally gone on a frenzy about this. If this same situation had happened in say Michigan, rather than N. Idaho, none of us would have heard about it. Indeed, the "standoff" lasted two days longer than it needed to because a local TV helicopter kept buzzing the kids in their house and scared them.

            This is NOT the Return to Ruby Ridge.

            [This message has been edited by FEOBob (edited 06-09-2001).]

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            • #21
              You know, I was right with you on the Webster thing. But what most of you are proving here is that you don't know squat about law enforcement or the tactical decisions that must be made to protect EVERYONE involved.

              There isn't one single solitary thing about this incident that you can compare to Ruby Ridge. I may even agree that law enforcement screwed up aspects of that incident. But not this one. I don't even think that you could classify this as a standoff. As far as I could see, they backed off and attempted to use an older sister and one brother who left the house to negotiate a peaceful ending to this. And what happened? They had a peaceful ending.

              Bullets travel just as quickly and kill just as fast if they are fired by an adult or a child. That cop does the ssame type of job that you do and wants to go home at the end of the shift just as badly as you do. He needs to consider his personal safety before he commits to an operation. If the kids had guns, the cops had certain things they had to do.

              Everything that I read about this indicated that Mom was nuts and the kids were in danger. There was a relatively rapid deterioration in the family, a failure to attend school and a deckine in hygiene in health. These are all tell tale signs that these kids need help and need it now. The State appears to be helping the family now. If they can get the Mom straightened out and get the family back together, I am sure they will. The government conspiracy nuts aside, the cops are not in the business of breaking up families and taking kids away for the fun of it. On the contrary, the cops have a whole lot less problems with kids from intact families than they do broken homes.

              Time to stick to FF and leave the law enforcement to the professionals.

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