Idaho Standoff

[sgtdave2002]

I have been reading about this situation in Idaho. It really bothers me to see and hear what the local and state authoraties did to this family. I stand behind the kids 100% with what they did. The law enforcement tricked this family into believing that they were going to help them and then when the mother went to except thier help they arrested her. What kind of message do you think this gave the kids.

I understand that this does not directly involve the fire service, but these kids will never trust anybody in a uniform again. What do we wear every day we work? A uniform!! What a slap in the face!!
I want to hear your oppinion.

Thank you,
Sgt. Dave

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God Help those who don't improve themselves for the betterment of those who we incharge of..

[gah74]

I don't think cops should be dressed up like firefighters, but I do think they need some freedom to do their job. They have an extremely difficult job and it seems like they constantly get slapped in the face by the community, media, and courts. They have so much red-tape to cut through before they can make a legal arrest that will stick in court it is unreal.

They make mistakes and bad decisions from time to time but I sure wouldn't want to be without them.

I BACK THE BLUE!!

[CollegeBuff]

From the news reports I've seen, the kids have been raised from birth not to trust anyone outside their own house. Someone in uniform = the government. Even worse, to them. But I wouldn't say the sherriff skewed for life their view of authority - their parents did that.

[Althea Forhan]

God, what is this world coming to? Yeah, Lets have a standoff with a bunch of children. I don't know what exactly went on inside that household, but if my mom went in to town saying, "I'm going to pick up some groceries" and didn't come back, and my house was surrounded with cops, and I didn't know where my mom was or even if she was alive, and I didn't know what was going to happen, I'd be pretty damn frightened.
While Child Endangerment is a serious crime the Law enforcement isn't handling things the way they should. These aren't hardened criminals, nor are they Scizofrenic homeless men with hand grenades. The younget one is what, six years old? Something like that.

Althea

[daysleeper47]

Well Althea, you have to understand that teh 6 year-old, or one of his siblings was probably holding a shot gun out the window at those fine officers. The house was full of guns and dogs. As you pulled up the driveway, there was a sign that said to honk and not get out of the car until they secured the dogs. The mother believed that the government was spraying things onto the road and that was what made the father ill. There were a lot of problems here and they all lead back to the parents. Once the kids secured themselves in the house with the dogs and the guns, there was nothing that the police could do except wait it out. And they couldn't exactly leave knowing that there were a bunch of kids locked in a house with guns, that's not right either. I feel that the cops did the best that they could.

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Joe
Daysleeper47
"When the bell goes ding-ding, its time to get on the woo-woo."
"Dusting desire - starting to learn. Walking through fire with out a burn..."
Youngstown Fire Department

[Eng522ine]

Admittedly, I really am not all too familiar with this case but I will say a thing or two...

I don't know about the child endangerment charges but, I will say Mom and Dad sure taught these kids how to take care of themselves and stick together. Not for nothing but I think those are 2 things that should be taught to ALL kids.

Now for a question:

Who exactly is endangering these kids more, Mom or the dozens of armed cops outside the house?

Let's all remember that they are right in Randy Weaver's neighborhood (of Ruby Ridge infamy) and we should ALL know about the crimes and unconstitutional acts committed by our government in that fiasco. And people wonder why these kids don't trust cops...HA!! I think I'm gonna have to back the kids on this one, Idaho law enforcement hasn't exactly shown itself to be a protector of democracy and freedom in the past and I, for one, surely do not expect that it has changed.

[Althea Forhan]

Exactly. The first things that came to mind when I heard about this were "Waco" and "Ruby Ridge".

Daysleeper:
Sure, the 15 year old may have had a gun pointed at the officers, but he could have had one pointed at the six year old too.

It sounds like the mother was quite paranoid and/or grieving. You have to remember, they're just children. They need a whole different kind of management--Special Tactics, not Special Weapons. The negotiation process is completly different than it is with adults. They only wanted to stay together in a place they knew. Perfectly logical.

Althea

[sgtdave2002]

eng522ine,

I cant agree with you more. The government needs to help this family, not put them in jail. When we were kids how many times did our parents barely have enough money to put food on our table. Does this constitute the police or sheriff dept to take them to jail? Nothing ****es me off more than the government throwing their weight around with people that cant defend themselves. Who's to say that we aren't next. Keep the comments coming.

Thanks,
Sgt. Dave

[This message has been edited by sgtdave2002 (edited 06-05-2001).]

[hot DAMN]

you are all crazy!!!!!! How could you all possibly blame the police in this matter? This is firmly the fault of the type of WACKO parents that teach their kids that Timothy McVeigh is a WAR HERO, and that the government is only out to kill them and steal their freedom!! God I have heard some STUPID arguments on this forum, but this one takes the cake!!!!!!!! The police are FIRMLY in the right. They handled this very well considering that wild dogs were set on them and that their were armed criminals, be they children of not were involved. I haev nothing but respect for the level of restraint they showed in RESCUING these children.

[gah74]

I agree w/ hot damn.

It's starting to sound like a bunch of paranoid militia people in here. Waco??? give me a break. David Koresh was a total damn psycho. Oh well, I'm not even going to get into this.

[Althea Forhan]

Uh, you just did.
Now let's think about this--mother thinks government is killing her husband. Tells children government is out to kill them and/or take their freedom. Then mom gets arrested, and the government trys to take away what the children know and love--their mom and their way of life. If you're one of the kids, yes, you think of that as proving mom right. I don't agree with the children's upbringing, but the law enforcement didn't help themselves by doing what they did.

Althea

[gah74]

This is the kind of house you go into as a paramedic and besides being scared to death, you think someone needs to get in here and save these kids.

The government was killing her husband??? Dad was already dead from MS. The kids were raising themselves because mom would hardly get out of bed except when she needed a beer. The police didn't initiate a standoff w/ children. They were going to the house to get custody of them and the oldest one allegedly yelled "Get the guns" and then set the dogs out after the police. At this point the police can't just leave. They are more or less responsible for the kids (i.e. mom in custody, dad is dead). So you don't like the way mom was lured out of the house? okay fine. Maybe they should have come in breaking down the doors w/ an arrest warrant. Maybe they should have had a standoff w/ mom in the house w/ the kids. Hey she might have even pulled a Waco on them...then we could have blamed the police for that too. Or maybe we shouldn't have done a damn thing...then when the kids died from abuse/neglect we can all sit there scratching our heads wondering what it was we could have done to help. Or maybe we should have just bought mom some groceries and got her on food stamps. Maybe we should have bought her a six pack of Coors Light. Hell, I don't know. Next year you can rent a U-Haul and park it in front of the local police station.

[Eng522ine]

hot DAMN... Think about it, isn't the government trying to take their freedom away? They're standing up for the only thing they know, their family and each other. I'm not saying that they're going about it in a mature way but, let's remember these ARE children.

I also find it somewhat interesting that we have heard from no side other than the govt/PD. Amazing what you can get people to believe when the only thing they have to listen to is YOU! Nevermind the fact that our liberal media loves nothing more than to be able to bash the 2nd Amendment and all that believe in it. I'm just extremely suspicious of the entire deal.

As far as Waco goes, lets not forget, BATF sent tanks in when they KNEW there were children inside. Now there's real compassion and caring for the well being of children. I say don't trust the government as far as you can throw the whole hypocritical, corrupt beaurocracy.

Before the accusations start flying...
NO, I'm NOT anti-government
NO, I'm NOT anti-democracy
NO, I'm NOT some type of extremist
NO, I do NOT believe that scumbag that blew up the federal building was ANY type of a hero.

I just don't trust what we have let our government become. Stay safe all.

[This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-06-2001).]

[gah74]

eng522ine...
"Think about it, isn't the government trying to take their freedom away? They're standing up for the only thing they know, their family and each other. I'm not saying that they're going about it in a mature way but, let's remember these ARE children."

...the children aren't under arrest and they aren't taking the childrens freedom away. Mom was under arrest. Were the police supposed to leave the kids there to fend for themselves???

"I also find it somewhat interesting that we have heard from no side other than the govt/PD. Amazing what you can get people to believe when the only thing they have to listen to is YOU!"

...not true. Mom is being plenty vocal along with her lawyers you just haven't noticed...and who is bashing the 2nd amendment here??

"As far as Waco goes, lets not forget, BATF sent tanks in when they KNEW there were children inside. Now there's real compassion and caring for the well being of children. I say don't trust the government as far as you can throw the whole hypocritical, corrupt beaurocracy."

...they waited outside for months. The tanks didn't kill those kids anyway. The sick bastard and his followers did, yet there is a loud minority that is hell bent on defending David Koresh and the Branch Dividians and laying all the blame on ATF and FBI. I don't get it.

[Eng522ine]

gah...

"...they waited outside for months. The tanks didn't kill those kids anyway. The sick bastard and his followers did, yet there is a loud minority that is hell bent on defending David Koresh and the Branch Dividians and laying all the blame on ATF and FBI. I don't get it."

Well, as opposed to waiting any longer they decided it would just be better to write the kids off? This is not what we have government for. Anybody that would even attempt to argue that Koresh was anything but utterly insane, might want to think of getting themselves evaluated as well and I'm NOT defending him. What I'm saying here is that the long-term well being of the children is what the government SHOULD have been concerned about, it's readily apparent that the children were the least of their concerns.

I would like to make one recommendation to you ... read the book about Ruby Ridge by Jerry Spence (he's the one that defended Randy Weaver). You just might start seeing things from a different point of view. What our government did there was SICKENING! They stooped to the level of a 3rd world dictatorship, they entrapped the man, murdered his wife (who happened to be holding a baby when she was shot, not a gun), they took shots at his son, and dammit, they killed his dog! If you actually read the book maybe you'll become as distrustful as I am about our government and it's actions. I realize that Ruby Ridge was a federal blunder, not a local PD one, but try to remember these are the kinds of things these kids have heard about the government (sad part is, they're true).

Also, for the record, I must thankfully note that you all have showed an admirable level of maturity in not stooping to the all-to-common bashing that takes place in the forums. It's nice to be able to disagree with someone and not have to regress to playground insults and slams. Stay safe all.

[This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Eng522ine (edited 06-07-2001).]