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  • #61
    E229LT

    A few must be purchased and tried out by select units and a R&D unit will evaluate it's performance.

    Curious - who is the R&D team made up of (what type of personalities - open minded, set in their ways for example)?

    Do they take suggestions from the field or just when something comes across their desk they think is worthy of evaluation?

    Do they only select units that go along with their thinking?

    If you could get your hands on a 1.75" auto fog that would flow 300gpm plus, would you be able to evaluate it at your station as a training session (not on calls)?

    LHS*

    Oh that's right you'd have to teach the pump operator how to supply it. Probably over yor head.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say they'd be in over their head. I'm starting to see more and more that these guys don't have a choice. Sort of like if Dallas does something new, we'll be training on it or buying it shortly, (fortunately we have a little more flexibility and can adjust it at the station).

    I've noticed a pattern here, and at the risk of repeating myself. Seems the bigger the city - again no offense intended towards them - the less input the line firefighters have on equipment review, evaluation and purchasing. Consequently they don't have the opportunity to evaluate or maybe even suggest new ideas.

    But now that we've brought admin into this, I have got to ask two off topic questions:

    In your city who hires the chief? (mayor/city council here)

    Aside from the locals current position on any administrative BS going on, did the local endorse the present elected officials that are screwing with you?

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 06-04-2001).]

    Comment


    • #62
      Mongo, Here is the way we are structured and answers to your questions.

      No we did not back the Mayor in the last election.

      The Mayor appoints the top 8 positions in the department. They are as follows in order of authority.

      Commissioner
      Deputy Commissioner
      1st General manager
      2nd General manager
      3rd General manager
      Chief of Operations
      Deputy Chief West side
      Deputy Chief east Side.

      The top 5 have little or no experience in the field as firefighters. The Commissioner was brought over from the Police Department.

      We average having to wait 3-4 years for contract negotiations to get settled. We have chosen fire equipment that the administration has turned down and decided on their own what to purchase reguardless of the firefighters recommendations. They actually refused to work with the union health and safety committee until just a couple of months ago. Same with the apparatus committee.

      I went off topic again, but did answer E229lt's question in an earlier post. I still would state the same thing. I would continue the attack with the lead line, knowing that the second line is right behind me. My instincts and experience would dictate wether or not I decide to change tactics after that and possibly begin holding or backing out to a defensive mode. Actually being in the situation is much different than reading a scenario as far as judgement goes. I will use my experience, training and knowledge to make those decisions as circumstances dictate.

      [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

      [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

      Comment


      • #63
        //Do they only select units that go along with their thinking?//

        I assure you, the brothers of my department "go along" with nobody. Our pilot programs are legit' and I have been involved in a few. If a piece of equipment doesn't pass muster with the men using it, it's gone..."RESULTS,NEGATIVE"

        At some point, you have to trust someone. The men on the frontline are my choice when it comes to testing equipment. A mountain of books and numbers come in a far second to field use. (Wow, we're back on topic)

        Politics and fire, mix like Larry and me. I will stand behind my department's piloting of new equipment and trust the opinions of the members who have put it to REAL use.

        Our unions are a vocal lot. When something smells bad, they are the first to say it stinks.

        There may well be a fog tip out there that can out perform what we use now. I can say for a fact, not one of our brothers has seen or used it yet. If they had, it would be on every engine in the city. NO DOUBT!

        Comment


        • #64
          E229lt... If I'm ever up there in New Yawk, think I can come ride out with you guys for an afternoon or evening? I'd like to see how you guys operate. I'm sure it's quite different from the suburban Dallas area.

          Comment


          • #65
            gah74

            Nice to see you're awake. Our door is always open.

            Comment


            • #66
              E229lt,

              Are you with one of the ball teams from New Yawk that are coming here this weekend for the Burn Center Tournament? No e-mail address for you, I just had to ask.

              Comment


              • #67
                Question.....If a tree fell on Larry in the woods and no one was around, would anyone care??? Kinda like that Far Side cartoon with the mime. Maybe some of you have seen it. I know I know Larry I dumbed down the discussion.

                Comment


                • #68


                  LHS,

                  Give me some specifics on the flows you refer to here. And, are you citing flows for 1 3/4 or larger line?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    //Maybe in 100 years you'll be able to match the handline flow of a LA City, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco, or Seattle?//

                    Sorry,

                    Here is the quote I was referencing for my earlier question. It didn't take before.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Staylow

                      //Give me some specifics on the flows you refer to here. And, are you citing flows for 1 3/4 or larger line?

                      Larger, 2” Angus

                      ////Maybe in 100 years you'll be able to match the handline flow of a LA City, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco, or Seattle?//
                      Sorry,
                      Here is the quote I was referencing for my earlier question. It didn't take before.

                      The limit in the FDNY’s case is the largest tip they carry is 1 1/8” Whereas, all the others have tips including you SFFD that will flow 300 to 350 gpm. Unfortunately, in their case their hose is capable of a lot more flow as are the nozzle crews, the nozzle won’t allow the water out of the line. If gpm is importat why notmaximize the ability of the crew, buy them a $60 tip. The end result, is the crews are moving a bigger line than needed for a low flow. Why make the crew work more than twice as hard?

                      A similar case could be made for the 3 inch hand lines SFFD uses. There is no hydraulic or fire fighting case that can be made for 3 inch attack lines at flows of 325 gpm and less. And zero case for the 3 inch couplings as well. Ya’ll are moving 44 percent more weight than FDNY.

                      These are the items aluded to in R and D or lack of it.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        LHS*

                        I'd still like to know where you are currently fighting fires. Or is this the one question you don't have a well spun answer for?

                        To drift way off topic I'm offering an analogy:

                        Why hasn't the military designed a fighter that can pull a 30g turn?... Because no pilot could fly it!

                        I firmly believe that handlines flowing 300+ gpm, is beyond a reasonable volume for a one or two man nozzle team. Further, men, a lot smarter than you, have advocated 180 gpm and pressed up to 230-250 gpm for a handline that can be readily handled by the above crew.

                        If the crew isn't mobile enough to reach the seat of the fire, 300 gpm might as well be a water pistol. Once you have tried to press an attack on a "Collier's Mansion" or been pinned down in the hallway of a windblown Project fire, you may begin to see; volume must be given up to mobility and visa versa.

                        Perhaps, your department has the luxury of 4 or 5 man nozzle crews. I couldn't say, because I don't know where your coming from.

                        [This message has been edited by E229lt (edited 06-05-2001).]

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          LT, I've been following this thread since the beginning, and now see where you're wondering where the mysterious Mr. LHS* fights his fires. (I'd guess he fights them on paper)

                          I asked the same question on another thread, and got a one phrase response:

                          Posted 05-13-2001 03:13 PM:
                          Kingston F.D.

                          When asked to elaborate by another forum member, there were amazingly, no further responses from LHS*

                          Good luck finding out anything further.

                          FTM-PTB-EGH

                          [This message has been edited by Phildabox (edited 06-05-2001).]

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            My question about Larry isn't where he fights fires - it's if he's ever been on a second date.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Phildabox,

                              Kingston,NV huh? After a quick tour of the web, the only thing I found was the below link:
                              http://www.westlife.com/oldnevada/snaps/nvsnap1.htm

                              Look at the third picture down. This is Larry's response area, 1996.

                              Comment


                              • #75

                                //I'd still like to know where you are currently fighting fires.

                                KIngston

                                //Why hasn't the military designed a fighter that can pull a 30g turn?... Because no pilot could fly it!

                                Not true. The structure of n F-18 can pull 15 g’s plus. We fly 10 to 50 g’s regularly. Come out here and see the future and see RPVs flown by pilots sitting behind a computer console where he should be no MIA’s POW’s, etc..

                                //I firmly believe that handlines flowing 300+ gpm,
                                That’s nice, there is a church in town tat believes a salamander gave this guy a gold tablet and glasses to read them, that multiple wives were ok, and now they are the third largest religion in the US. I can’t doing anything about your beliefs. But a lot of FD’s do have the ability to flow 300 gpm plus. And they have for 50 or more years.

                                //is beyond a reasonable volume for a one or two man nozzle team.

                                Ok big city boy, what the frick is a one man nozzle team? There is not “I” in “Team”

                                ////is beyond a reasonable volume for a one or two man nozzle team.

                                DUH

                                However, NFPA and ISO both list a 325 gpm nozzle as a standard compliment for all engines.

                                So the fact your belief isn’t based upon the way you operate makes it even sillier. One or two guys on a 2 ½” line. Yeah right, your FD has been published saying they assign 2 to 4 engine companies to a 2 ½” line. (see FE web page to read for yourself) You don’t work that way so why post such a silly comment?

                                Know what I believe one guy should conduct an interior attack alone too!

                                /Further, men, a lot smarter than you, have advocated 180 gpm and pressed up to 230-250 gpm for a handline that can be readily handled by the above crew.

                                Oh please give names of who suggests a one man nozzle crew. You won’t answer, because you are full of beans.

                                Let me tell you who says not to, the IAFC, the IAFF, the NVFC, ISFSI, NFPA 1710 an 1720, NFPA 1500, OSHA, and all State OSHA’s, your turn post your proof.

                                Oh I see, almost every fire department in the US using a 1 ¼” SMOOTH BORE IS WRONG AND YOU BECAUSE YOR ARE FROM fdny you ARE RIGHT!!!!! Lol lol lol

                                Syracuse blowing 2 ½” flows out of a 1 ¾” line is wrong and you are right.

                                That FDNY was wrong using SM 30’s for 4 years and flowing 300 gpm plus during the days you really fought big fires. That Memphis in 1940’s using the Memphis nozzle, and Salt Lake City ion the 50’s using 1 3/8 and 1 ½” smooth bore tips on handlines and Killarney FL in in the 1970’s, and Gary IN,Granbury, TX etc were all wrong using 500 gpm handlines?? You pompus ***!

                                //If the crew isn't mobile enough to reach the seat of the fire, 300 gpm might as well be a water pistol.

                                And if one goes in as a “TEAM” hell be dead like the guy in IOWA too.

                                // Once you have tried to press an attack on a "Collier's Mansion" or been pinned down in the hallway of a windblown Project fire, you may begin to see; volume must be given up to mobility and visa versa.

                                Oh, I see, you can’t gate back on the nozzle? I see using bigger hose by 50% makes you more mobile? I think you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. I take in a 2 inch line with two guys and I’m not more mobile than two guys on the 2 ½” line you use every day? Are you on drugs mr 1 man crew?

                                My crew with two guys on a 2 inch line are not as mobile as your two guys on a 1 ¾” line?

                                You don’t have the balls to answer these direct questions do you?

                                So here we are with our more mobile line and I can out flow you by 2 to 1. What did I trade off? Nothing! What did I gain? A line 50% lighter than yours and twice the flow potential, that’s what! GO back to your stone-age ways.

                                //Perhaps, your department has the luxury of 4 or 5 man nozzle crews. I couldn't say, because I don't know where your coming from.

                                Isn’t staffing the job of the officers? You bet I can staff a line properly, as does your alleged FD.

                                “One man Team” GO AWAY! You’re dangerous!

                                PHILDABOX

                                ///LT, I've been following this thread since the beginning, and now see where you're wondering where the mysteriousfights his firesI asked the same question on another thread, and got a one phrase response:
                                Posted 05-13-2001 03:13 PM:
                                Kingston F.D.

                                Too hard for you to figure out? Add the state name to it off my profile. You nee an address, GPS way point what?

                                Well gee mr St Elsewhere FD Maryland where do you fight you fires???? Does it make any difference? Laws of physics apply everywhere don’t they?

                                //. (I'd guess he fights them on paper)

                                Gee I fought fire in MD too, station 12 and 24 in Montgomery County MD, gee fires went out the same way there, too. Need names to verify my work there?

                                //When asked to elaborate by another forum member, there were amazingly, no further responses from *

                                Gee, please post the citation like you did the above.

                                So what pray tell do you want to know? You asked where I told you were. Need fire truck color or something? Dam it boy if you got a question ask it!

                                Comment

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