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  • #46
    //If the ball valve of a 2 1/2" controlling nozzle is 1 1/8" and you have attached a 1 1/8" solid bore to it, what is "in the way of higher flows"?

    Once again our FD provides for us better than yours. Our balls are 1 3/4 and 2". The 1 1/8" tip is the limitation. 250 gpm.

    //Likewise, a 1 1/2 nozzles valve being 15/16" and you place a 15/16" SB on it. You have merely introduced a stream straighter to the nozzle.

    Sorry we don't use 15/16 valves on our nozzles, our department thought about what they were doing before they bought small waterways like you. Ours are 1 3/8". Once again the limiter in YOUR CASE is the 15/16 tip 180 gpm

    //Once we introduce a fog tip we are redirecting the flow through a baffle, does this somehow increase the flow?

    The nozzle can open to allow more flow, unlike the SB, flow/reaction crap you all preach. OUr flow limitation is 450 gpm or 1000 gpm. Yours, a laughable 180 or 250 gpm.

    //No, it increases the velocity at the loss of GPMs.

    1 3/8 water way on ours, the valve and our tip becomes th limit at 450 gpm and YOURS is 180 or 250 gpm. SORRY

    //The stream will reach farther but you are reducing the flow in order to increase the velocity.

    You don't jhave a clue how automatic work do you. Pump 100 get about 100 gpm, pump 300 psi get 350 gpm, etc. We can out flow you on any line and out reach you on any line.

    //A solid bore nozzle that is the same size as the orifice feeding it will give you the maximum flow allowed by the shutoff. No fog tip can do that, none, zero, nada.

    HUH, but it appears in your case, you are using a smaller valve than us. Our 2 1/2" valves are 1 3/4 and 2 inch.

    So your 3 answer only theory of wait is dumb based on nozzle and hose size in use. You see one 2 inch can out flow two of your 1 3/4's and one 2 inch will out flow one of yor 2 1/2" and a 1 3/4" line...gee it is your nozzles and hose selection that sucks.

    If you want to compare big lines we can flow 800 to 1000 gpm. OOOPPPS sorry you lose again.

    All the above is based upon all those years of experience huh? Sounds like to me you never learned the first 6 months of the job and have simply repeated it 40 times. Lousy buying decisions result in low flows and fewer fire ground options. You are using the wrong size attack line, wrong nozzles and just get by. All of the rest of the big city's don't follow your lead...gee what does that say?

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 06-04-2001).]

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    • #47
      In reply to the question/scenario posed by E229lt...

      You are in charge of a line, operating in a fire compartment/room. As your nozzle team advances, hitting the ceiling, sweeping the floor and hitting the fire base, the fire is not darkening down. The size of the line and the type of nozzle can be what ever you want.

      You can see that you need more fire power and call for a back up line. While you are waiting for the line to arrive, do you:
      A. Advance
      B. Hold your ground
      C. Back out


      I would hold my ground until the second line arrived and was in operation. For instance - if I had a 1.75" line - I would tell them to pull a 2.5" line. Just because the fire in 'darkening down' doesn't mean that aren't controlling it. You may be halting it's advance with the inch and three quarter - but you don't have the GPM's to put out - all the way out ---- So what are you going to do - pull out completely because you don't have the right size hose -- I think not. You are going to do the best with what you have until the heavy artillery gets there.

      just my opinion


      ------------------
      Marc

      "In Omnia Paratus"

      -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

      Comment


      • #48
        Here is a fact LHS,

        Your "facts" still haven't earned any respect on these posts because of your self righteous personality.

        My opinion: I have no doubt you would fail miserably if you had to do the actual work some of my brothers in New York do on a routine basis. You talk a great game, but the obvious insecurity and jealousy you feel towards FDNY shows through your sarcasm. But of course, you have been there and done that in the Mayberry towns you have worked. Go ahead and remind us again how you could, and have, done what they do. Oh, I forgot. You went to a 1000 alarm fire, you were at the Oakland Hills, you travel the country, you edit a magazine, you only give facts, you alone stay on the topic at hand, blah, blah, blah..........

        Comment


        • #49
          \\E229lt:// //A solid bore nozzle that is the same size as the orifice feeding it will give you the maximum flow allowed by the shutoff. No fog tip can do that, none, zero, nada.

          \\Larry: HUH, but it appears in your case, you are using a smaller valve than us. Our 2 1/2" valves are 1 3/4 and 2 inch.//

          What do you mean by HUH? My statement doesn't ask for your valve size. The statement speaks for itself. Since you can't refute it, you attack it. Go back, read again and show me that the above is wrong.

          BTW Larry, you have me at a disadvantage. You know, and can look up my department's "facts". Perhaps I could do the same, if you don't mind us knowing from what fire factory you operate.


          [This message has been edited by E229lt (edited 06-04-2001).]

          Comment


          • #50
            ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz

            Comment


            • #51
              Wake up Gah, Larry's about to dazzle us

              Comment


              • #52
                You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm prepared to believe - and no offense intended to you big city folks - that some of us simply do not know what's out there and what's available for the simple reason we get what supply sends down and get trained on what training wants us to know. If those two groups don't look at what's new or old and available then neither can those of us on their line.

                A solid bore nozzle that is the same size as the orifice feeding it will give you the maximum flow allowed by the shutoff.

                E229LT, your statement is true, but consider the following:

                - How much water can you get through the shutoff? Is the shutoff limited to traditional smooth bore rules?

                - On an auto, how ever much water you can get through the shutoff is reconfigured/shaped (flbt) in the end of the nozzle prior to discharge from it, your flow is limited by both the valve and the orifice and plate.

                - On the smooth bore, your flow is limited by the quality of the stream as it exits the tip.

                No fog tip can do that, none, zero, nada.

                Would you then agree that a 1.75" fog tip that can get 300gpm through the shutoff could then put 300gpm out the end of the nozzle?

                Akron, Elkhart and TFT all sell 1.75" nozzles that will do this.


                [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 06-04-2001).]

                Comment


                • #53
                  QWould you then agree that a 1.75" fog tip that can get 300gpm through the shutoff could then put 300gpm out the end of the nozzle?

                  A. If the shutoff could flow greater than 300 gpm, yes, I would believe the tip could flow 300gpm. On the other hand, if the shutoff's flow was 300 gpm max, I don't believe the fog tip could match the gate.

                  As for a departments limitations to use what is supplied, I agree 110%. We are all limited buy budgets and supply. We cannot go out and buy enough equipment to supply the whole job something new and untested. A few must be purchased and tried out by select units and a R&D unit will evaluate it's performance.

                  The last time I saw a total purchase, job-wide was the recent radio fiasco. At the same time, however, how could a new radio system be tested by select units if they would be operating on the same fireground on a different frequency? A double edged sword.

                  I am always open to change and new equipment. But, if that equipment was tried by other companies, that I know, and it was not deemed an improvement over what we are using, it's only smart for me to be hesitant about using it myself.


                  [This message has been edited by E229lt (edited 06-04-2001).]

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I've been reading these posts and I am glad to see that atleast you guys are thinking out there Remember...everthing you come across in the fire service, both good and bad is a "tool" to put in your "tool box" to be used when and if you need it some time down the road in your career. I started back as a volly in 1983 with Adelphia Fire Department with Harry Carter as my training officer. He is a very book smart firefighter with the experience to back it up and I learned alot about the craft from him that I still use today as a paid firefighter. I wish he would give us his insight on this topic, I think it would be interesting to read his point of view.
                    Y'all Stay Safe and Be Careful Out There!
                    Truckee516B

                    ------------------
                    The opinions express here are soley my own and are in no way shape or form the views of my employer.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      E229lt, LHS doesn't seem to understand or even have the capability to comprehend that most urban departments do not have an overflow of money in order to buy all the new and improved equipment we need.

                      Our department does the same as yours as far as testing. LHS seems to think this is a short term process ( believe what ever the salesman tells you right), quite to the contrary. Stick to your guns Lt.

                      Sorry to get off the subject but I wonder why LHS isn't running a large department with his vast amount of knowledge and expertise. Then we would have everything we needed. I guess he really doesn't understand budgets!

                      Now we return you to your local station

                      [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        firelt1951,

                        //most urban departments do not have an overflow of money in order to buy all the new and improved equipment

                        Let's not talk about most, let's talk about yours! DETROIT. A fog tip costs more than a smooth bore, so you did spend more for less flow, RIGHT?

                        It ain't an issue of new and improved...The issue was flow, back out, wait, etc.

                        The nozzle DETROIT uses can be configured for higher flows at no charge at the time of purchase. Bad buying choice is all. Take the booster off your rigs and you can afford any nozzle you want on every engine.

                        See it is what you are spending your money on that is foolish.

                        ///NEW?

                        The nozzles you use are 1960's designs. As are your pumps, hose, etc.

                        Change chassis on Detroits fire trucks and you can put imagers on all rigs. You are making all kinds of choices every day, it isn't about money and it isn't about new.

                        //Our department does the same as yours as far as testing.

                        I'm sure you, Detroit are the only fire department reading this using 1 1/2" attack lines for interior firefighting. The fact you almost always reverse lay puts you in the minority. In 99% of the cases everyone reading these boards gets water on the fire faster than you except FDNY.

                        //seems to think this is a short term process

                        Ok, here is short term, 3rd largest FD in the US changed 65% of their nozzles in a two year period, even changed makes and styles. The largest and 2nd in CA did it in a year. So, I'm off in my thinking eh?

                        //quite to the contrary.

                        So, give examples of the contrary.

                        //isn't running a large department with his vast amount of knowledge and expertise.

                        Golly, I'm under long term contract to two of the 10 largest FD's in the US and doing a whole bunch of in between, and you?

                        //Our department does the same as yours as far as testing.

                        Oh is this refering to E229LT's post of, "The last time I saw a total purchase, job-wide was the recent radio fiasco. " Figures, your FD has been the laughing stock of the fire service tha last few years.

                        //We cannot go out and buy enough equipment to supply the whole job something new and untested

                        Sounds like your "radio fiasco" proves otherwise, just another reason not to model your FD off FDNY.

                        //A few must be purchased and tried out by select units and a R&D unit will evaluate it's performance.

                        Are they on drugs or something? How do you test and get a "fiasco'? LOL LOL

                        //I am always open to change and new equipment. But, if that equipment was tried by other companies, that I know, and it was not deemed an improvement over what we are using, it's only smart for me to be hesitant about using it myself

                        Golly, in the context of this forum, would it be too much to ask and too hard to test a stacked tip or a tip in your pocket Called a 1 1/4" tip? Yeah, instant 250 to 325 gpm. Oh that's right you'd have to teach the pump operator how to supply it. Probably over yor head.

                        How about a 1 or 1 1/8" tip for the 1 3/4" line too? Make all the excuses about line size go out the window, wouldn't it.

                        Maybe in 100 years you'll be able to match the handline flow of a LA City, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco, or Seattle? Nah, I doubt it. Just wait for the back up. It's cost how many lives in the last two years?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZz Huh, what? Was that tone for me? Oh, okay.... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz zzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZ ZZZZZZZzz

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                          • #58
                            Next post

                            [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              LHS, you sir have every right to attack the administration in this city. There is not one firefighter here who hasn't fought tooth and nail for the proper upgrading. We do what we do with less and we do it well.

                              How dare you disparage the firefighters of this city and FDNY. I'll put my crews firefighting abilities and that of FDNY against any crew you pick.

                              Stop stooping to a level of an arrogant self centered individual who blames the firefighters for the shortcomings of an inept administration. Yes, you are off in your thinking. We have and will continue to fight for what we need. When the powers that be decide to start listening to the firefighters, things will get better.

                              I once said that I liked and prefered the rockwood type of nozzel, that is not what our companies use. We have at the present time mauraders, akrons and elkharts along with some smooth bore nozzels.

                              I invite you to come here and set this administration straight with your vast knowledge and experience. I'd like nothing more.

                              What are these large departments you supposedly work for. Let us know so we can all bow down before you. As far as what I'm doing. I'm putting my [email protected] on the line every shift, which is more than you can say.

                              Sorry people about not sticking to the subject but my anger got the better of me. It won't happen again.

                              [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

                              [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-04-2001).]

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                              • #60
                                He won't tell you where he's from, he'd be laughed off the boards.

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