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If you throw a book at a fire, will it go out?

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  • #31
    OK ya’ll seem to be arguing this topic in the ground and each of ya has been saying the same thing. You just need to answer this one question and everyone will be on the same page. Have any of you ever had any training that was not backed-up by any type of publications? To find this answer you have to go to your Training Officer and ask for a copy of his/her lesson plans. All the information involved in that training session must be listed there including where the information came from i.e. books.


    • #32
      Is it not possible to be both??? Sure seams like a lot of people that score well on tests get labeled "book smart" implying somehow that they can't apply the information effectively and have no common sense and actual viable skills. Just good old fashion firehouse jealousy.


      • #33
        E229Lt said: "Keep the posts coming, and Larry, you still suck"

        LOL!!!! Ya killin' me here!!

        J. Black

        The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated.


        • #34
          Firefighting is a craft.

          It is a blend of art and science.

          Much of our art is experiences of those before us, of them trying different things and finding out what works best.

          But that art must also agree with the science.

          A carpenter may build the most beautiful structure, but experience alone doesn't mean it's the strongest and safest practical design. So the carpenter needs to build his beautiful building while following codes developed to make sure major mistakes of the past aren't repeated. And most of the codes are based in science and engineering.

          If what we're doing in the fire service by tradition also makes sense when you run the numbers, life is good. When the numbers don't add up, either the art is bad or the science is bad and ya gotta figure out how to reconcile it.

          The advantage to these forums is we can double check our science (even if even I occassionaly screw up only to have Kirk point it out to me!).

          Many things have changed over time, and much of what was the best practices 20 or 30 years ago are no longer since the technology has changed.

          Gotta check the art against the science of modern technology.

          Some science is constant -- elevation loss/gain was 0.434 psi /foot thirty years ago, it is today, and will be thirty years from now.

          The friction loss charts most of us use for "rubber lined hose" are woefully out of date, since many manufacturers now have much superior performing hose.

          So if your pump ops still use the same old pressures but you've improved your hose, you could be getting a lot more at the nob then you realize.

          The FL charts list 1.75" hose at 40psi/100' @ 160gpm. Same flow in Angus Hi-Combat 1.75" is 25psi/100'. Say you have a 200' line -- pump it at 130psi. On old 1.75" that gives you 160gpm @ 50psi from a 7/8". Put in Hi-Combat, keep the pump pressure the same. Your now deliver 185gpm @ 65psi from the 7/8"...and for you nozzle reaction fanatics you just went from 60lbs to 78lbs.

          Nice thing about the forums, you don't have to use the seat of your pants, or rules of thumbs...you can look up the math for yourself. Just like I did for that example -- I plugged the numbers in a spreadsheet and could show the difference.

          Kinda like preplans and SOPs -- don't need to figure out everything on the fly if you've already collected a lot of the details. You can also look at the problem, think about a solution, even check what other people have done and what the appropriate standards are.

          Experience is important. Books are important. Experience puts the books in context.
          By the way, I usually don't spend hours looking stuff up 'cause I spend way to much time on computers as part of my job and can find my way around the net very fast, and the hydraulics mostly I do on a spreadsheet.

          That spreadsheet is freely available at http://www.mortlake.org/Miscfire/FireInfo/fireinfo.htm -- you do need a program like PKZIP or WINZIP to "unpack" it, and MS Excel to run it.



          • #35
            By the way, I am trying to figure out a formula that combines BTU output and fire volume vs. the size of a book needed to put it out

            Big fires, well then you obviously need to throw sufficient books at it that they displace oxygen and fire gases faster than the BTU output of the fire consumes said books

            I'm thinking maybe we can convert them into something like those blown cellulose insulation systems, and if you blow in cellulose faster than it's consumed by the fire, eventually you would smother it...


            • #36
              As we drift off topic, I'll try to reel you all back in with a scenario:

              You are in charge of a line, operating in a fire compartment/room. As your nozzle team advances, hitting the ceiling, sweeping the floor and hitting the fire base, the fire is not darkening down. The size of the line and the type of nozzle can be what ever you want.

              You can see that you need more fire power and call for a back up line. While you are waiting for the line to arrive, do you:
              A. Advance
              B. Hold your ground
              C. Back out

              This is a cut and dry scenario. The books are great, but in this situation, useless. The decision you make MUST be based on your experience.

              Of the three choices given, I expect 30 other choices to be posted. My point is, if you've been there you'll know how to handle it. If you haven't, but you've read a mile high stack of books, you'll be unsure of what to do next.

              Hydraulics and physics are great. I read everything I can get my hands on. But what I've seen and done in the past are always more valuable to me inside than everything I've read outside.


              • #37
                // As your nozzle team advances, hitting the ceiling, sweeping the floor and hitting the fire base, the fire is not darkening down. The size of the line and the type of nozzle can be what ever you want.
                You can see that you need more fire power and call for a back up line. While you are waiting for the line to arrive, do you:
                A. Advance
                B. Hold your ground
                C. Back out

                GET A CLUE. None of the above is the proper answer in a majority of the US fire service. Depending upon which concept you employ, Simply open the gate on the nozzle more or ask for an increase in EP is the correct choice. Automatics and sectoflow/turbojet nozzles out number every other type and style of nozzle out there. Even the Vindicator would not rely on the three silly options you suggest.

                Sit and wait for a backup line? I don't think so. What, the fire is going to wait?

                The other option is change the direction of attack and go back to vent before spray, did you vent?

                //This is a cut and dry scenario.

                Gee, let's say I was an FDNY firefighter and my fire department wouldn't trust me with real nozzles. Yeah I'm screwed. But the rest of the world isn't. You are stuck at 180 or 250 gpm. I ask for setting two on the throttle and my line at 180 or 250 gpm jumps to 350 gpm. Just like that!

                Pull another line? Yeah in your dreams.

                Advance when the line isn't doing the job, only if you have a death wish.

                Back out? Not before I hit it with 350 gpm. Oh that is right you can't do that with your silly nozzle compliment of one or the other tip only option. LOL LOL

                //The books are great, but in this situation,


                // The decision you make MUST be based on your experience.


                //Hydraulics and physics are great.


                So here I am in the scenario you speak of. My 2 inch line with an automatic nozzle flowing 200 gpm isn't getting the job done. My pump pressure is only 107 psi for 200 gpm and 125 psi for 250 gpm. But we work on a one psi concept with our automtics (like the little bitty towns that never ever see any fire like Hoston, LA County, Dallas, Syracuse, Seattle, etc)no matter what, so we only open the knob far enough to get the desired result. Pull the handle all the way back and we flow 325 gpm or shut down a second and go with the 1 3/8 stub tip for a flow of 425 gpm. If the fire doesn't darken down at that flow we'll probably finish the job outside. That is enough for a 1300 squre foot room. Wait for a back up line eh??? No thanks.

                I read everything I can get my hands on.


                Of course Staylow will give some emotional response not based upon any fact, let's wait and see!

                [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 06-04-2001).]


                • #38
                  You are giving me a great laugh, once again. Your sarcasm is funny. Really!!! But, take it easy. You get so upset by the rest of us know-nothings. You always have the perfect answers that put it all in perspective for the rest of us mere mortals. Give us time to learns from you, our master instructor. We are bound to make mistakes until the day your teachings will increase our self righteous level equal to yours.

                  Please write your thoughts and extensive experiences down somewhere other than these posts. I'm positive you could provide the definitive fire fighting "how to" book of all time. Forget the IFSTA manual. The LHS manual will be the only true "bible" for the world to follow. Then maybe we can start to do things right for a change.

                  LHS is THE fire god.


                  • #39
                    Here's what someone told me a long time ago:
                    To be the best, a firefighter needs HEART;
                    H = hears and listens
                    E = eyes to see how it's done
                    A = asks when he doesn't know
                    R = ready for anything
                    T = takes time to teach others

                    I think that almost everyone that uses these forums has shown they have heart.


                    • #40
                      That's it!

                      We must all officially drop to our knees at noon every day, turn and pray in the direction of Larry.

                      And hope for salvation.


                      • #41
                        Ah Larry, you are priceless.

                        More and more you are proving your vast experience is limited to 1000 alarm brush fires and trailer parks.

                        Let me suggest, on your next 1000 alarmer you try Smoke-Jumping, and leave the parachute at home.


                        • #42
                          Ya'll having lots of trouble staying on topic aren't you? Can't speak to the facts so you rely on personal attacks, very professional.

                          Admit it, your nozzles are in the way of higher flows, thus you have to wait for a back up line. All your alleged experience has you pulling the wrong size line.


                          • #43
                            This is what I dislike about written scenarios. Seeing the situation itself versus reading about a situation with no information such as a drawing of the layout. Lt, let me ask this? What size structure are we dealing with? What is the size of the fire room? What is the construction type of the structure itself?

                            As far as LHS goes and his remark about ventilation, DUH, I doubt any of us would be so short on brains as to not ventilate the fire building.

                            Without being there and looking at the situation, I'm not sure which one I would choose. Here, if we have a building fire of any size we always stretch backup lines and have them ready for immediate use. This is in our SOG's. As you've written it, I would already have had a second line close to the fire room and keep advancing until I saw or felt something that wasn't right, then I'd have to change tactics to conform to the new situation.

                            Of course I'm just flying by the seat of my pants


                            • #44
                              //Admit it, your nozzles are in the way of higher flows//

                              If the ball valve of a 2 1/2" controlling nozzle is 1 1/8" and you have attached a 1 1/8" solid bore to it, what is "in the way of higher flows"?

                              Likewise, a 1 1/2 nozzles valve being 15/16" and you place a 15/16" SB on it. You have merely introduced a stream straighter to the nozzle.

                              Once we introduce a fog tip we are redirecting the flow through a baffle, does this somehow increase the flow? No, it increases the velocity at the loss of GPMs.
                              In simple terms, if you can handle simple terms, it's like squeezing your thumb over the end of a garden hose. The stream will reach farther but you are reducing the flow in order to increase the velocity.

                              A solid bore nozzle that is the same size as the orifice feeding it will give you the maximum flow allowed by the shutoff. No fog tip can do that, none, zero, nada.


                              • #45
                                I glued myself to older and experienced firefighters when I first got on the job, and looking back I'm very glad I did. When my favorite partner was forced to retire early due to strokes he told me this;
                                "I taught you everything you know - but not everything I know."


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