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  • #91
    The suppressive effects water may have on Class 'A' fires are - (Grant & Drysdale FRDG 1/97)

    Fuel Cooling - Cooling of the combustible solid fuel surface, which reduces the rate of Pyrolysis and thus the supply rate of fuel to the flame zone. This reduces the rate of heat release by the fire; consequently the thermal feedback from the flame is also reduced and this augments the primary cooling effect of the suppression agent. The application of a water spray to the fuel bed is typical of this method;

    Flame Cooling - Cooling of the flame zone directly; this reduces the concentration of free radicals (in particular the chain-branching initiators of the combustion reaction). Some proportion of the heat of reaction is taken up by heating an inert substance (such as water) and therefore less thermal energy is available to continue the chemical break-up of compounds in the vicinity of the reaction zone. One function of the new water mist technology is to act in this manner, the fine droplets providing a very large surface area per unit mass of spray in order to increase the rate of heat transfer;

    Flame Inerting - Inerting the air feeding the flame by reducing the oxygen partial pressure by the addition of an inert gas (eg N2, CO2, H2O vapour). This is equivalent to the removal of the oxidiser supply to the flame by the production of water vapour. This is the dominant mechanism by which water mists can suppress large confined fires.

    In a discussion of water-mist fire extinction mechanisms Mawhinney added to the above the possibilities of thermal radiation attenuation, dilution of the flammable vapour/air mixture and chemical inhibition

    The use of water-fog, or fine sprays, as opposed to the solid straight stream attack in structural fire situations is nothing new. In fact, there has been an ongoing debate for the past fifty years as to which is the best form of attack. Even quite recently, there have been research projects that lasted several years to measure the effectiveness of water-fog patterns in cooling fire gases and extinguishing fires under various ventilation parameters, in comparison to the benefits and extinguishing capabilities of straight streams. In real terms, either form of attack has advantages over the other, depending on varying conditions.

    The term 'three-dimensional water-fog' is not to be confused with that of 'indirect water-fog' and the associated applications of either style are completely different. Quite simply, the 'indirect' approach is where water is applied in a fine spray form onto the heated surfaces of a fire involved compartment, or room, to create steam. This massive expansion of steam creates a positive pressure within the room and smothers the fire to extinction within seconds. However, the steam will create a sudden rise in compartmental temperature and cause a major problem for firefighters occupying the compartment. The 'three-dimensional' approach, when used as a firefighting tool, places the water-fog directly into the heated fire gases and avoids excessive contact with hot surfaces. This, in effect, causes a negative pressure within the fire compartment and firefighters are not burned by steam expansion. This effect is achieved by resorting to specific 'pulsing' techniques at the nozzle and by selecting ideal fog 'cone' angles and pattern diameters. The application is precise and requires both equipment and nozzles that are able to function with optimum effect and firefighters that fully understand and are trained in the application techniques.



    • #92
      Originally posted by LHS*:
      //***How did you see a 1000 alarm fire? That i believe is a bit far fetched?

      4600 ff’s in our state fighting a complex of fires. Only 35 air tankers though.
      I asked in a different thread... but the "Invisible Web Team" in their usual infinite wisdom closed the thread... so I will apologize for going off the topic and ask the same question here.

      If 4600 firefighters were involved, I want to hear from some of the others who were there. Surely with that many responding, more than just ONE is a member of this forum. I am sure LHS will want to reply to this, but I want to hear from others who were there. This could be something to learn from (which is why I started the other thread).

      Does a "complex of fires" mean there were several unrelated fires... or was it really just one big fire? Since LHS refers to air tankers, we must assume this was a wildland fire. How many structures were involved?

      As I stated in the other thread, for our MABUS system here, it would require every department in 9+ counties to fill 1000 alarms.


      • #93
        1000 alarm fire eh? Speaks volumes about your manpower levels don't it?
        Have you ever been to New York, no not the pretty down town, but the actual city. with 200+ year old streets and older buildings? This is the blueprint of most northeastern cities which are much older than any building in Nevada.
        You crunch a lot of numbers but still don't support your answers with any facts.
        If someone says, "yeah it works for us" how can you possibly say no it doesn't?
        And anybody who would use a LODD as an argument shouldn't be in the fire service, you are probably lucky that you are on the other side of the Mississippi, because between all of the east coasters you've ****ed off in this forum you wouldn't stand a chance.



        • #94
          If you use a smooth bore for interior attack you are by far the minority of the fire service.


          • #95
            1,000 alarms? Bullsh*t! We like to get our fires stopped before they get that big. Yes LHS*, please tell us where this 1,000 alarm fire was...I have spent quite a bit of time in Nevada on fires, but don't remember being on a 1,000 alarm call. I have a hard time beliving you. And a complex is a series of fires in an area. They can be up to 100 miles apart. If there is enough fire, they bring in a team and make it a Complex. And you don't count wildland fires in alarms like that. Where the hell did you come up with that fuddy-duddy idea? And there is sh*t in buildings that have been sitting there longer in NYC then some buildings even being there in NV. Please, go find someone who will listen to your ramblings and bullsh*t and quit wasting time here.

            Thank you


            • #96
              Even I'm getting to the point where I believe that Nate and LHS must be ignored completely.

              Here are 2 people who come from a state where (except for casinos) there was nothing but desert 35 years ago.

              They don't seem to have the intelligence to understand that most eastern and some cities west of the Mississippi are a hell of a lot older and much poorer.

              With all that gambling money Nevada has no wonder they can do what they want. Most of our urban and poorer cities can't. A lot of this comes down to MONEY and these 2 just don't get it!

              Anyway, besides for saying that these 2 are the most irritable individuals I've ever had the displeasure to deal with on these forums, lets just stop answering them, shut them out and lets hope they never come to the cities they have disparaged. I don't think they would have the guts to go there and talk the same trash to the firefighters there.

              Sorry for getting off this topic but LHS was way way out of line on the FF death remarks.

              [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 05-28-2001).]


              • #97
                Gee the topic is nozzles, but lots of folks ask questions but never answer what is answered of them. Here Are a few answers.

                //If 4600 firefighters were involved, I want to hear from some of the others who were there.

                Contact the US forest service, BLM, etc. They will tell you all about the complex.

                // it would require every department in 9+ counties to fill 1000 alarms.

                Well good thing out here we’ve figured out how to go to 20,000 plus firefighters and mosve apparatus 600 plus miles or more, isn’t it?

                // And a complex is a series of fires in an area. They can be up to 100 miles apart.


                // If there is enough fire, they bring in a team and make it a Complex.

                Yep, makes lots of sense, and feed everyone, and give them a place to eat, bring fuel, tools, etc. Can’t be to big a deal feeding 4,600 to 14,000 firefighters 3 times a day can it?

                // And you don't count wildland fires in alarms like that.

                Never? Are you sure? Yeah a request for 125 strike teams, 75 dozers and 80 helicopters couldn’t be an alarm. You can certainly count it in equivalent terms can’t you?

                When: Oh repeated again in 2000. Surely again in 2001 too.


                In just 4 hours 300,000 acres on the I - 80 (called the Great basin, basically a 6 county area) corridor and 1700 firefighters onscene.


                at 600,000 acres


                Just passed 1.1 million acres for the year, approximately 2000 square miles. With 3000 firefighters on the line 250 engines 80 choppers, 40 aircraft.


                At 1.3 million acres with 4600 firefighters working on a huge government jobs program. Overhead was 470 guys on top of the 4600.


                14,000 firefighters on the line.

                Source NIFC site

                Gee all the fires run out of one fire center, National Interagency Fire Center
                . How many alarms would 14,000 guys be? Guess why the fire fund is $100 million once and 300 million once maybe and the wildland guys got an extra $7.5 Billion every year?

                SO THE BIGGEST FIRE ANYONE EVER HEARD OF WAS 14 ALARMS HUH? So 4600 fire fighters and 250 engines divided by 14 equals, 321 guys and 17 engines per alarm, pretty big alarms eh? Twice the size of the Las Vegas fire department on every alarm. The average extra alarm in the US is between 2 and 6 major rigs and goes down as the alarms go up. That is what 6 to 24 at the most guys per call? 4600 divided by 6 to 24 per call is what equivalent to 191 to 766 alarms? Now add the aircraft, dozers, fuelers, lead planes, choppers etc to the alarm total. Of course they don’t use alarms, they call around and ask for individual resources and strike teams when they can get them. Now do it for how many days? So 14,000 divided by 6 to 24 guys is what? Maybe you folks don’t know everything about fire in the US.

                Ask CAPTAIN HICKMAN the wildland guru on FireHouse to tell you about it.


                Deaths...25 one cop and one FF
                Single Family Dwellings Destroyed...2,843
                Single Family Dwellings Damaged...193
                Apartment Units Destroyed...433
                Total Living Units Damaged or Destroyed...3,469
                Total Acreage Burned by the Fire...1,520
                Fire Perimeter...5.25 Miles
                Estimated Dollar Fire Loss...$1,537,000,000
                Engines: 432
                Firefighters: 1190

                How many alarms is that? Not bad for 18 hours.

                Oh in the spirit of several members of this board, “how dare you bad mouth wildland fires and firefighters where 15% of the nation’s firefighters die each year!” You defame fallen firefighters!

                // With all that gambling money Nevada has no wonder they can do what they want

                Yeah, it couldn’t be because it was the right thing to do. Great excuse for your inaction. So you knock off a few guys with the excuse we couldn’t afford it, if it works for you….


                • #98

                  How does the mother of all grass fires apply to the use of nozzles for interior attack?

                  I Just Gots Ta Know.....

                  Take it easy, but be sure to take it!!


                  • #99
                    You make me sick!!! The way you talk about "knocking off" firefighters. You sound like a psyco arsonist when you talk about firefighters that way. As for your 1,000 alarm fire....bullsh*t. Don't you think a fire that big would make Firehouse.com news? Hell, a 2 alarm fire in Texas made front page, I think a 1,000 alarmer would make it. And I never heard about it.


                    • LHS*HOLE
                      Would that "1,000" alarm fire have been in the area of Winnemucca? What role did you provide on that fire? You order resources, the NIFC or the SIT report record those stats as resources order, have, availible and so on. They don't say "The Fire God LHS has 15,000 alarms worth of firefighters standing by" They say "We have 13 Tpye-6 engines, 10 Type-1 Engines and 4 Hotshot crews, 10 20-person crews, 2 Dozers, and 2 Tankers" How oh how can I get to be as damn smart and perfect as you?


                      • Fyrerescue 50-1077

                        ///How does the mother of all grass fires apply to the use of nozzles for interior attack?
                        I Just Gots Ta Know.....

                        Some guy allegedly from FDNY asked if I’d ever been to a 10 alarm fire. You know, unless you've been to a 10 alarm fire you wouldn't know anything about interior attack, of course the next issue is did you wear a leather helmet, have you facepiece around your neck and have pull up boot on.


                        //The way you talk about "knocking off" firefighters.

                        What do you call it when NIOSH comes out and says follow written policy, 300 lbs firefighters dying in their sleep in the station, fighting a grass fire up hill from the fire, not keeping accountability of your guys, learn to drive the rig you’re driving before it kills you, teach your guys not to jump on a fire truck that is moving? It is not a heroric act. But in the context of nozzles, just because so and so does it doesn't make it right. If we choose nozzles based on loss of life by the end users, we'd use LA's nozzle not FDNY's.

                        // Don't you think a fire that big would make Firehouse.com news?

                        It did!

                        //And I never heard about it.

                        That’s not saying much! Let me guess you didn’t hear about today’s 6000 acre fire, with 250 ff’s, 33 resources committed, either right? Watch CNN it is on every 30 minutes.

                        Odds are you don’t know how many firefighters died fighting wildland fires in the WGB last year either.


                        4,081,000 acres lost so far this year nationwide, twice the 10 year average, 45% in our Western Great Basin region.

                        The top 10 largest wildland fires of 1999

                        1 Dunn Glen Complex Winnemucca, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management
                        8/4 8/20 2 Sadler Complex Elko, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management 224,509 8/5 8/12 3 Battle Mountain Complex Battle Mountain, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management 169,608 8/4 8/11 4 Jungo Complex Winnemucca, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management 169,220 8/4 8/20 5 Big Bar Complex Weaverville, California
                        Shasta-Trinity National Forest 140,947 8/23 11/3 6 Mule Butte Aberdeen, Idaho
                        Bureau of Land Management 138,915 8/3 8/7 7 Trail Canyon Austin, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management 95,793 8/6 8/14 8 Kink Chicken, Alaska -- Bureau of Land Management and State Lands 92,010 6/12 9/13 9 Kirk Complex California
                        Los Padres National Forest 86,700 9/8 11/18 10 Clover Midas, Nevada
                        Bureau of Land Management 73,077 7/8 7/12

                        Note all but 4 are in the WGB I80 corridor.

                        Tom Warren went on his first wildland fire 15 years ago and has seen more than a fair share of flame on the rangeland since then.
                        But last August, as he stood on the edge of a northern Nevada wildfire complex that would grow to more than 200,000 acres, the sight was overwhelming. Wildland fire ripped through grasslands, stands of pinyon-juniper and native sagebrush. Flame lengths measured 25 feet high or more. At its peak, the fire raced across the high desert at 40 miles an hour.
                        "Crazy" might be the best single word to describe the 1999 fire season, which was devastating in some areas and didn’t materialize in places less than a hundred miles away. Another description follows the text of a nursery rhyme: Where it was good, it was very good, and where it was bad, it was horrid.

                        The Great Basin, and in particular northern Nevada, was one place the fire season was horrid. A low pressure system anchored itself off the northern California coast in early August, spinning enough moisture and atmospheric instability inland to generate a series of thunderstorms through much of the Great Basin. Many of the storms were unaccompanied by moisture and fanned by winds gusting to 50 miles an hour. The result was devastating, a firefighter’s nightmare: in the Great Basin alone, more than 1.4 million acres were burned in less than a week. It was the worst fire season in the Great Basin in at least 35 years, wildland fire experts say.
                        "Nevada experienced some of the toughest rangeland wildfire we’ve seen in a long time. At one point, 75 percent of all wildland firefighting resources were in that state," ,says Les Rosenkrance, director of BLM’s National Office of Fire and Aviation in Boise, Idaho.
                        Not that all the action took place in Nevada. At opposite ends of the continent, Alaska and Florida experienced unusually severe fire seasons. From mid-June to the end of July, the number of acres burned in Alaska jumped from 50,000 to more than one million. Florida suffered through a year where 341,000 acres were scorched. Even the mid-Atlantic states, not known as a wildland fire hotbed, had their share of blazes.
                        California also experienced an active season. Stubborn wildfires plagued the

                        state well into November, perpetuated by strong winds and almost no precipitation during late summer and early autumn. Two fire complexes, that were ignited August 28 and September 8 challenged firefighters for more than two months as they burned in steep and rugged terrain and dry vegetation.
                        By early-November, more than five million acres of land burned in about 85,000 wildland fires across the United States.
                        Do those figures indicate a disastrous season? Not necessarily. Where fire season was good, it was very good. The Southwest and Pacific Northwest, for example, had light-to-moderate seasons. Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, northern Idaho and Montana had their bouts with wildland fire, but overall, their seasons were tame.
                        The erratic fire season can be blamed primarily on one factor: La Nina, a pool of cool water in the tropical seas of the Pacific.
                        Rick Ochoa, a meteorologist for the National Weather Service in Boise, Idaho, explains.
                        "La Nina had a major impact on the fire season," Ochoa says. "La Nina usually brings dry winters and springs to the southern tiers of states. That’s why we’ve had a very busy fire season from Southern California to Florida."
                        In the Northwest and Rocky Mountain states, La Nina generally brings dry autumns and wet winters. Nevada, California and other parts of the West "had a terrible combination of weather: a windy spring, a hot dry summer, dry lightning in August and September, topped off by a warm and dry fall," Ochoa says.
                        The mountains started out with record-breaking snows in parts of the West, but they also dried out by late summer. Some well-timed rain in September and a little less dry lightning than Nevada helped keep the lid on fires in the Northwest and Northern Rockies.
                        "La Nina most likely will continue through the winter. If that’s the case, then we could have an active season in the southern states again next spring," predicts Ochoa.

                        Last I checked we had 2 million acres in the WGB the last two years

                        National totals

                        1998 81,043 2,329,709 1999 93,702 5,661,976 10-Year Average 106,347 3,647,883


                        /// What role did you provide on that fire?

                        Just answering the question had I ever been to a 10 alarm fire. Fire guy directing back fire operations. Is that OK?

                        ///They say "We have 13 Tpye-6 engines, 10 Type-1 Engines and 4 Hotshot crews, 10 20-person crews, 2 Dozers, and 2 Tankers" How oh how //

                        So, 41 resources, that would be 10 alarms worth in non-wildland terms, right????

                        [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-28-2001).]


                        • So, can I be special like you? I spent 20 days on the Dunn Glenn complex...have the shirt to prove it...and the red dog copy. What did you acomplish with the article on there?


                          • Well here in this city I would prefer smooth bore nozzels over adjustable.

                            1st reason is that a lot of our water mains are between 60 and 120 years old. We've had a problem with the old sediment breaking loose and clogging the pipes, even after flushing the hydrant. Flushing the nozzel usually doesn't work either because of the size of the sediment chunks.

                            Some of our water mains are still wood and others that were once 16"-18" are now down to 6". This doesn't include our local residents stuffing everything you can think of into these hydrants. Yes we flush every time we hook up, but it doesn't prevent sediment from clogging the pipes on many occasions.

                            Yes LHS, it does come down to MONEY, when you're working for a city that is far from being overflowing with funds, it doesn't help. This city is around 80% residential, I guess you think that all the homeowners here should srinkler their homes. Good thought but again money would stand in the way.

                            This city does require sprinklers in all new construction, except for dwellings. This law was passed back in the 70's. My guess is you would think that we should tear down all the old buildings and start over. I don't think so.

                            Last but not least, you need to pick your words more carefully but then again maybe your incapable of that. Thumbs up to the FDNY.


                            • LHS*

                              You are a dandy. Take a simple nozzle forum and turn it into WW III.

                              I have long thought you might have useful information to share, but your method of trying to get it across to people by verbal attacks and topic twisting to suit you have proven once again that it isn't worth the effort to listen to you. Even if statistically FDNY has a higher firefighter death rate than anyone else how could you possibly expect to get away with saying they "KNOCK OFF" firefighters without creating a firestorm of controversy? That information could have been relayed a thousand ways without being said so derogatorily and with so much lack of respect for the fallen brothers.

                              I have a feeling you must be quite an insecure man who must attack others in order to have self worth. Not every topic, not every post, not every comment made is an invitation to you for your endless tirades.

                              Larry, turn down the diatribe or turn off the computer.



                              • LHS*,
                                Reading the hotel fire in Vegas today, what happened to 100% of Nevada being sprinkled? It says the casino was, but the hotel wasn't.....


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