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  • #31
    Ugh!!!!!!!!! That's it, I'm tired of hearing all the bickering between you guys!!! If you want to **** and moan about what other departments are doing, start another post!!! I'm just trying to gain some knowledge and hopefully some other people will read this and learn something too. If you have a beef with something other people are doing, take it somewhere else, I'll go there if I want to read it, right now I don't want to hear it!!!

    ------------------
    -FF D. Betka
    NSFD
    Norton Shores, MI

    Comment


    • #32
      To stay on topic, at my full time gig we have 15/16th smooth bore on all 1.75" lines. About half of those have a fog tip screwed onto the tip. Generally we remove the fog nozzle and go with the smooth bore. For our 2.5" lines we have 1 1/4" tips with a 250gpm tip screwed on the end. Again we usually go with the smooth bore.

      At my part time department we run almost all Vindicators. The only smoothbore is on the deck gun. With the arrival of our new LaFrance even the deck gun will be a vindicator.

      As for the side post, It has been my observations that most everything that comes out of FDNY is considered gospel. Because they have far more experience than any of us. If you look at the run stats from New York you'll see that most of the companies have about the same amount of "workers", and that numbers in the thousands. http://www.nyfd.com/history/engine_runs.html

      For many of our communities 1,000 fires in a year would leave our town a pile of embers. Keep up the good work in the big apple and let God look after our families while we are away.

      Comment


      • #33
        ////If you look at the run stats from New York you'll see that most of the companies have about the same amount of "workers", and that numbers in the thousands.

        Let’s use initial attack structure fires. Workers include cars, trash can outside, grass fires, rubbish, etc.

        The official web page stated they average engine company and shift had 7 initial attack structure fire responses per month.

        Yes, there are small town USA’s doing that, close to that and more. More importantly in the context of nozzle choice and selection, the small town USA is doing that in their buildings, their construction, their apparatus, their water system or lack of one, with their people, with their tactics, with their staffing, with their lack of venting or venting.

        So what is a better choice, chose the nozzle based on FDNY or on your own needs and challenges?

        If FDNY is your choice, hand over extrication and rescue services to your local sheriff or cops, change all your threads from National Standard to New York thread, throw your plastic helmets away, remove your preconnects, use lightweight aerials with zero tip load rating, only buy pumpers, aerials and ladders from one vendor, get rid of your volunteers or 24 hours shifts, afterall New York City does it!

        I'm sure they have a reason for whatever they do, it just might not apply nicely where you live.

        Comment


        • #34
          Fireboy,
          Didn't think you could cause a ruckus talking about nozzles did you? It always amazes me what people can get bent out of shape over. I didn't get a chance to read all the replies but I will tell you what we do. We run a wide variety of call types including modern light-weight constructon, some comercial, older farm style homes, barns, tons of mobile homes, grass fires, forest fires, and lots of wild-land urban interface. Our use between Smooth-Bore and Automatic varies greatly depending on the call type. We have a new squad with CAFS and I think it is proven that Smooth-Bore is the way to go with CAFS for the best product. We do carry an Automatic on it though. On our engine we have Automatics for interior attack, we think it is best to have the diversity the Automatic provides while inside (fog, straight, little water, a lot of water, hydro-vent etc.). I think it also depends on how involved the structure is too. If the structrue is well involved and there is a primary all clear, and we need to get this thing now, we will use the CAFS with smooth-bores inside. Our engine also has a smooth bore preconect for exterior fires that need penitration like sheds, wood piles, hay stacke etc. It also has one Class A foam preconect with a Bubble Cup Nozzle. Our Water Tender also has both an automatic and a smooth-bore preconect and a forestry nozzle preconect too. As I said we have a variety of call type and a varity of nozzle types. Seems to make sense and it works for us. My advice to you is keep an open mind, look at what other depts. are doing, don't let the guys on here with bicips bigger then their brains get to you, and most importantly use what works best for your department with your call type and construction type. Good luck and hope this helps.

          Comment


          • #35
            I think it was said best when the issue of performing tests came out. All you have to do is pick up a copy of Firehouse or Fire Engineering to see departments all over the U.S. performing tests on SBs'. The fact is that many people are realizing that this is a tool that many firefighters, including myself, want in the box.

            In my opinion, I like SBs'. In straight stream, automatics have not proven to me to hold the same quality stream as a SB. Remember that fog nozzles always push air, even in straight stream.

            But, when is a solid bore most important? High flows. Flows greater than 200gpm. If you need more than 200, then you need a hose bigger than a 1 3/4 and a nozzle that will allow pressures to make the line operable.

            Example:
            A 2 1/2 inch line 200ft long with a 1 1/4 inch tip will produce 300gpm at 86psi engine discharge pressure.

            Now as for low pressure nozzles, most departments, that I know of, are not using them , because they are not going to go out and replace their inventory based on a 25psi difference in nozzle pressure.

            The reality of the steam production is that most firefighters are taught the indirect attack with a fog or to set their patterns at 30 - 45 degrees, stick it in a room of fire and wip it arround (remember the "O" and "T" patterns?). Thus creating the steam effect. Direct and combination attacks just don't seem to be high on the list. It is not until later that a firefighter learns either on his own or from good veterans the value of adjusting patterns, minimizing water usage and the overall capability of the nozzle.

            Good Luck, Be Safe

            [This message has been edited by Truckman (edited 05-21-2001).]

            Comment


            • #36
              FDNY:
              1995 saw 3,905 "serious" fires (all-hands working or multiple alarms)

              That year they where running about 210 Engines (Today that's 203 Engines & 7 Squads).

              3,905 / 210 engines & Squads = Average engine was 1st due on 18.5 Workers. (Some companies a lot more, some a lot less.)

              FDNY Operates 4 platoons. 18.5 working fires / 4 = 4.6 times a year a particular platoon of a particular engine is first in on a fire. If you figure on shifts off on vacation, out sick, etc the average firefighter on an Engine by the stats is first due about 4 or 5 working fires a year. 4 Engines (?) on the 1st Alarm...a firefighter on a typical engine rolls to 16-20 working fires a year, plus a handful of multiple alarms.

              There's 143 Ladders, so their first due on a worker about 27 times each year, divide by 4 means a Truckie's first due about 7 times a year.

              Certainly certain companies see *a lot* more action. With 5 Rescues running on all the workers, an Firefighter on a Rescue will see about 195 Workers, and with the 7 Squads doing 1st due at home and running on all workers firefighters see about 157 Workers.

              49 Battalions see the average Battalion Chief 1st due on about 20 workers a year.

              I'm not knocking FDNY -- and there is some individual companies that see a hell of a lot more action then most of us will ever see...but there's a lot of firefighters and officers who don't see more, or much more, than many of us do, either.

              But what they know how to do is to fight fires in a congested Northeastern city where most of the buildings are pre-1950, and large sections from early 20th Century built in a hurry to handle the crush of immigration.

              With 321 square miles, it's something like 1.5 square miles per firehouse. Much of the nation is doing well to make the ISO of 7 Square miles (roughly) Engine and 19.5 Square mile (roughly) Ladder truck spacing.
              That gives FDNY probably about 4.5 times the density of fire apparatus of most places other than other congested, northeastern cities (and a handful of scattered old cities like San Francisco and Chicago). Add to it 5 man Engines and 6 man Trucks, they can consistently arrive sooner and with more manpower then just about anyone else.

              Many moderately busy vollie stations and small career departments that call back personnel will see close to the number of fires an average New York firefighter does. Say an average Engine man sees 20 workers in NYC last year...I ran on 7. Some members in our department hit 10 or 12.

              What's the big difference then? FDNY can put more firefighters on scene faster and more consistently. Even when we average 18 members daytime working fires and 36 members evening working fires, tactics and what you can do change dramatically if it's 2 in the afternoon and know those 18 members and going to take 15 minutes to assemble and the next in mutual aid engine is five miles away, versus 8:15 in the evening during a meeting and we have every truck leaving the station filled in 90 seconds. Yep, FDNY may just about always use a smooth bore and VES. They also just about always arrive with 30 firefighters or more within a few minutes of the alarm.

              That it works for them is great, but people shouldn't blindly follow them without realizing the conditions in which that set of tools & tactics was developed.


              Stats where from: http://members.aol.com/fd347/fdnystat.htm (Data to 1995)and http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/fdny/ht...ral/facts.html (Data from FY '98-99)

              And I rounded/guessitimated some of the numbers, but their good enough for government work

              Comment


              • #37
                So what you guys are saying is that only the first due engine does anything?
                You can't get any experience on a backup line or a second stretch?
                On a 10-75 FDNY gets 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Chiefs and 1 Rescue
                That means that the average for an engine is to go to 580 structure fires in a year, and that is just regular structure fire. No multiple alarms, no outside fires.
                I guess that would put the average New York firefighter at more fires in one year than many of us see in 10. I still stand behind what I said earlier.

                "If FDNY is your choice, hand over extrication and rescue services to your local sheriff or cops, change all your threads from National Standard to New York thread, throw your plastic helmets away, remove your preconnects, use lightweight aerials with zero tip load rating, only buy pumpers, aerials and ladders from one vendor, get rid of your volunteers or 24 hours shifts, after all New York City does it!"

                If we were as busy as FDNY then perhaps we wouldn't do as much as we do. Is their anything wrong with the police assisting with rescues or pin-ins? Many parts of the country have separate rescue organizations. The thread thing is a bit odd, but not too long ago we had Chicago thread adapters because of some of the hydrants in our area we not updated yet. I personally miss my leather helmet. We run a reverse leadout so most of what we do is off of the main bed. NY's areal selection works well for them. Setting up two outriggers is much easier than finding the room for 4 on a crowded city street. They also use their equipment, how many of us have preformed rescued with our aerials more than once or twice. I'll be the first to admit it my department hasn't done a rescue from the areal in the last 20 years, anyone in need of rescue was close enough to get with ground ladders. When rigs are purchased from one vendor they are easier to maintain by the shops. KC has all E-One, so does Boston, and looking at the website so does Fallon. We got rid of our volunteers, may years ago, our tax bas is large enough to provide full time firefighters.
                And lastly If the salary was the same I'd go to New York's schedule in a heartbeat. $57,000 for a 56 hour work week or $57,000 and work a 42 hour work week. Never have to miss a holiday with your family. Yep that sounds terrible.


                Comment


                • #38
                  Dal90,

                  Can I assume from the end of your post, if NFPA 1710 were adopted in your area, you would switch to SB?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    1710 isn't even a vague possibility, since the staffing level required of 15 +/- per shift, four platoons since we're in the Northeast, plus a handful for good measure for sick time, days off, outside training, etc without a lot of overtime would be about 70 people. Our School system employees 58 teachers. Even bringing up the current stations to that staffing level might not be enough to cover the geography to give us response times within NFPA 1710 without an additional station & staff to go with it.

                    Ok, so we got the consistent levels of staffing and response times. Now the next question becomes whats the hazard.

                    Do we have the unknown of life? Very, extremely rarely. We don't have apartments where people don't know each other; we don't have people who move around frequently. We're in a community where most kids need to be driven to go visit a friend. And if the family tells you everyone's out, you can rely on that information. If you're told everyone's out, what is the reward to go with the risks of aggressive VES and searching ahead of hoselines and above the fire?

                    Ok, so let's engage in a VES attack.

                    If we're comfortable in knowing our nozzles and their use (and having 70 full time firefighters each divided into four platoons handling about 2 calls a day department wide, they should have plenty of time to train). Why not use an automatic combination still?

                    Well, we could get rust/debris from a standpipe. Hmmm, we have two standpipe systems in our town. One is a brand new 4 story high-end elderly housing complex where most of the apartments are larger than my house. Not much chance of vandalism there, and at 4 stories it is the closest we come to a high rise. The other is the Correctional Center, and the chance of vandalism is so great by SOP we will not use their standpipe and stretch our own lines in 300-500' then use the gated-wye to handlines.

                    Nope, don't see us having much need for smoothbores even if we had the staffing to conduct VES if appropriate.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      You can't get any experience on a backup line or a second stretch?
                      On a 10-75 FDNY gets 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Chiefs and 1 Rescue
                      That means that the average for an engine is to go to 580 structure fires in a year, and that is just regular structure fire.


                      Well, somewhere the numbers aren't adding up...

                      There's 29,460 "Structure Fires" a year. Most of these are smaller fires that don't rise to the level of being an "All-hands" a/k/a Working Structure fires since there is only 3,900 of those.

                      Even taking into account 2d, 3d, and 4th in...yes, you get some more experience. But is it that much more than many smaller departments?

                      3,900 workers. Divide by 210 Engines & Squads is 18 times first due, divide again by 4 platoons of firefighters...is 4.6 workers a year. Multiply by 4 since there's four engines on the 1st alarm, your back up to 18 times an average Jake saw a significant amount of fire.

                      Doing the same math with 29,000 structure fires off all types, including I assume mattresses, ovens, partition fires, etc, you're running 1st due 138 times a year and on the first alarm to 550 times a year.

                      Are those numbers way out of line?

                      New York has a population of 8,000,000 with 4,000 workers -- 1 for every 2,000 people. My town had 3 last year (excluding mutual aid), with a population of 7,000 or 1 for every 2,300 and that's kinda a typical year. NYC had a total of 60,000 fire incidents (excluding MFAs), or 1 for every 133 residents. My town has about 75 total fire calls, or 1 for every 93 residents. I betcha y'all find those statistics on fires per population hold up fairly consistently.

                      So an "average" engine is 1st due on workers a little bit less than 5 times a year, and gets to a worker 18 times a year. My little town saw 3 structures in town and 7 mutual aid fires last year. Since we don't run shifts, most of the firefighters had oppurtonity to make most of them, so most saw 8-10 fires. There isn't that much of a difference there. FDNY may run more "structure" fires in total per man, but in our area, many of those don't rise to the level that triggers automatic mutual aid so the first alarm is never sent and only the first due station with a couple engines and rescue or ladder goes.

                      There are some helluva busy companies whose members see a lot of fire. Some strategically located Engines & Trucks; certainly the Rescues and Squads. But there is also a lot of companies that don't. Collectively FDNY acquires a lot of experience, but it's experience in fighting fires in their city, with their staffing, with their water supplies, with their buildings.

                      (And these stats aren't picking on FDNY. Apply the same comparisons to any department around the nation -- you'll find most cities have a few very busy units, and a lot who exist mainly because they need the geographic coverage and not because of the fire-load in their territory. *Not* that there's anything wrong with providing your citizens a consistent level of protection!)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Dal90,

                        I'm not sure how a VES attack, or lack of one, equates with not using SB.

                        As for standpipes, unless you are using a "PROVEN" low pressure fog nozzle, the thought of initiating an attack from a standpipe with anything but a solid bore is downright negligent.

                        As for the fuzzy math. I work in a quiet Engine. At most we do 200 occupied structural fires a year. As a firefighter I worked some busier houses. Earlier statements made by others suggest we don't have the option of nozzles, fog or solid. These statements are flat out wrong. With a few exceptions, we have the choice of nozzle to use at any given call. The flat out choice is ALWAYS solid.
                        Every new innovation in the fire service is field tested here. Nozzles, thermals, PPE, lights, rescue tools...you name it. They are Piloted out to some of the busiest and most diverse companies in the city. The officers, members, chiefs, give regular feedback on the performance at REAL fires and emergencies. After a given time R&D decides, based on that feedback if a product fits our needs.

                        I've read with interest on this site about our testing the vindicator and other low pressure fogs. Most of what I read was wrong. The plain truth is, our busiest and best have tried numerous fogs and have yet to find one that beats the reach, maneuverability and ease of a solid bore.

                        As I write I hear Larry saying, "your all stuck in your way and resistant to change"
                        Larry, you have already said enough.

                        Many on this thread have stated they can't match the manpower of NYC in the early stages of an alarm. Well, if you're short, why not use a nozzle which allows you to control 180 gpm at 50# with one or two men. It's better than a fog flowing 180 gpm at 100# because you need less members to handle it, fatigue is reduced, air supplies last longer and most important, if your staffing levels can't vent in front of the nozzle team, the air movement inherent to fog is not there.
                        I could fill this page and write for a week. There is no right or wrong answer to the "ORIGINAL" question. I can only say, in the last 20 years I have been fighting fires, I have handled many different types of nozzle. If you give me a choice, in a structure fire, bread and butter operation, I'm calling for a solid bore.

                        Everything I've read, heard and watched means nothing to me, compared to what I have done. You may all disregard me as the enemy or "NY A-Hole", no problem. I have fought a couple of fires and my choice is based on my experiences.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          //As for standpipes, unless you are using a "PROVEN" low pressure fog nozzle, the thought of initiating an attack from a standpipe with anything but a solid bore is downright negligent.

                          Proven low pressure, lets do the math. 75 psi nozzle pressure needed, 65 psi standpipe pressure, FL in the hose? That doesn’t work!

                          Not really, you live world where no one bothered to follow the national model fire codes. Someone allowed 65 psi standpipes. Duh, you’ve got some hydraulic problems there. Now yo guys support 100 psi. Go figure! However, if you follow the model codes you can flow 300 psi out of a discharge. Flow 1000 gpm plus off any floor. Rust in the system?? Not likely with stainless steel plumbing. Debris, missing parts? Better not be these things by code are tested and maintained. Of course anything over 70 feet would be fully sprinkled. Ooooppps you’d have to follow codes for that too!

                          //As for the fuzzy math. I work in a quiet Engine. At most we do 200 occupied structural fires a year.

                          Dalmation did not invent the numbers, your FD posted them. So 200 fires, 4 shifts equals 50 a year per shift. Or 12.5 initial attacks. Of course those were not workers, so 1initial attack per engine, per shift, per year and 4 back ups…using your numbers All, volunteer fire departments get more than that!

                          //As a firefighter I worked some busier houses.

                          Which means another company ran even less to keep the averages right. Face it your working fire call volume is over rated!

                          //Earlier statements made by others suggest we don't have the option of nozzles, fog or solid. These statements are flat out wrong. With a few exceptions, we have the choice of nozzle to use at any given call.

                          Yeah, 1 1/8 on 2 ½” or 15/16” on a 1 ¾”. That is no choice.

                          Choice should be based upon flow, line size should be based upon flow. You have neither. There is no hydraulic reason for you to be running 2 1/12” hose to support a 1 1/8” tip. NONE! I bet you don’t know how the 15/16”tip came into being in your FD!!!

                          // The flat out choice is ALWAYS solid.

                          Thanks for supporting the no choice concept! All this crap about reach and penetration, goes out the window. Why? Because a 1 ¼” tip will out flow and out reach your 1 1/8” tip. Because a 1” SB will out flow and out reach your 15/16”.

                          //Every new innovation in the fire service is field tested here.

                          And NOT put into service.

                          Certainly, you aren't bragging about the radio decison your department just made are you??????

                          //Thermals

                          Gee, you had them a decade ago only on the rescues and rarely used them. So now you buy them for every rig. Sounds like the testers and reality vary widely from decade to decade. Sounds more like opinion than testing.

                          // PPE,

                          Golly, way ahead of the pack there, what is this year four with turnout pants??? The rest of the world had them in the 50’s.

                          /// lights,

                          You don’t want to go there. Your apparatus is a total contradiction on that topic.

                          // rescue tools

                          Yeah right, the only innovation there is at ESU, or that’s right, they are cops!!

                          //...you name it.

                          You mean like the concrete block under the rear end of your rescues? Or air horns on the roof? Or cheaters on air packs? Having to lock up your electrical systems to keep the firefighters from screwing with them.

                          // They are Piloted out to some of the busiest and most diverse companies in the city.

                          And then die.

                          ///I've read with interest on this site about our testing the vindicator and other low pressure fogs. Most of what I read was wrong. The plain truth is, our busiest and best have tried numerous fogs and have yet to find one that beats the reach, maneuverability and ease of a solid bore.

                          Hey, guess what? The Vindicator ain’t a fog tip! It s probably the perfect nozzle for you guys.

                          // "your all stuck in your way and resistant to change"

                          Hardly, you just have no say period on change.

                          // you have already said enough.

                          Actually you have


                          /// Well, if you're short, why not use a nozzle which allows you to control 180 gpm at 50# with one or two men. It's better than a fog flowing 180 gpm at 100# because you need less members to handle it, fatigue is reduced, air supplies last longer and most important,

                          Actually, firefighters are doing just fine with whatever nozzle they have.

                          // the air movement inherent to fog is not there.

                          Use a straight stream and there isn’t any.

                          ///Everything I've read, heard and watched means nothing to me, compared to what I have done.

                          Ditto!

                          //I have fought a [i]couple of fires and my choice is based on my experiences.

                          So has everyone else.


                          [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-22-2001).]

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I'm not sure how a VES attack, or lack of one, equates with not using SB.

                            VES isn't compatible with fog tactics, because the careful control & coordination to make sure no one is searching ahead of a hoseteam when they open up an attack fog and push the steam, gases, and heat out the vent hole the searcher just entered. Same principle why you don't use VES and PPV together, plus we're adding more steam to the mix.

                            VES is safer with using SB and straight-streams. So if you always VES it's never safe to use fog inside, so if you never use the fog capabilities of the automatic combination...it makes a stronger arguement for leaving them on the truck.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              larry can you please tell me the last time you have been inside an actual burning building (more than two rooms)that was not a drill. you spew a lot of book crap but have not once told us anything you have learned from actually fighting a fire. an old chief (once the capt of rescue 2)was fond of a saying that went like this"carpenters get splinters, firemen get burns" translation for you larry is you put the fire out from inside the building not outside. you come on these boards and spill out all soughts of venom but i can not see for the life of me where all of this hate you have for paid firemen from large departments comes from. so in closing please tell me when was the last time YOU were inside a burning building.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                larry can you please tell me the last time you have been inside an actual burning building (more than two rooms)that was not a drill. you spew a lot of book crap but have not once told us anything you have learned from actually fighting a fire. an old chief (once the capt of rescue 2)was fond of a saying that went like this"carpenters get splinters, firemen get burns" translation for you larry is you put the fire out from inside the building not outside. you come on these boards and spill out all soughts of venom but i can not see for the life of me where all of this hate you have for paid firemen from large departments comes from. so in closing please tell me when was the last time YOU were inside a burning building.

                                Comment

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