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  • #16
    To: Fireboy422 We use SB nozzles and they do pack a good punch. Punch is one of the features that you want from a nozzle.I want a nozzle that can vent window and tear into ceiling spaces. If your using a fog nozzle in full fog thats a mistake. However if your nozzles are adjustable then in straight stream they should work ok. But a lot of these type nozzles have what appears to be a good stram ,however not enough water is flowing and you don't know it. Making your job tougher. Test both types and see for yourself. P.S. do it inside a building not outside and see how they realy proform.

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    • #17
      LHS I am glad that you have received all of the proper training and expertise on how to extinguish a fire with a combination nozzle. Unfortunately, there is serious lack of live fire training throughout most of the nation. Due to liability issues and increased overall fire department expenses, it is not being taught as well to our newer firefighters. The fire departments are handling EMS, hazmat, fire prevention, public relations, and of course fire suppression. Gone are the days when all we did was just fight fires. As a consequence we cannot trust that a firefighter can be "all knowing" when it is appropriate to modify the stream on an interior operation.

      It may be "dummy proofing" as you call it but what are the real disadvantages of a straight bore? If kinks in the line are all you've got, then that is a lame argument. SB nozzles use less pressure, are more effective at penetrating to the seat of the fire, produce less steam, and have less margin of error. Also it has been shown that the reactive force against the firefighters on the nozzle is much less, which helps reduce fatigue. I believe I can speak for many when I say that we just don't have the staffing levels to tire out our personnel on lines of higher pressure.

      Due to the increase in the use of synthetic materials in building and furnishing homes, fires are burning hotter than ever before. Energy efficient methods are sealing the fire in and not allowing it to flashover prior to the engine's arrival. I'd much rather my guys have a stream that will penetrate the heavy heat and disrupt the thermal barrier. All this while not producing steam which will penetrate their gear and cause horrible burns.

      Combination nozzles definitely have a place in the fire service. I'm just not convinced it is inside a burning building. And before you say that, 99% of the nation uses combinations so I must be full of it consider this....FDNY uses them everyday to fight fires ranging from houses to high rises. They see more fire in one year than you will probably see in your career. Apparently the things must work.

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      • #18
        /Combination nozzles definitely have a place in the fire service. I'm just not convinced it is inside a burning building

        Syracuse, NY eh?

        100% fog nozzles from the 60's on. Well, you all made it through the heavy fire years. Must have been better firefighters back then, is that what you are saying???? No one pumped higher EP's than Syracuse.

        //received all of the proper training and expertise on how to extinguish a fire with a combination nozzle

        Gee, I said that somewhere?

        //. SB nozzles use less pressure, are more effective at penetrating to the seat of the fire, produce less steam, and have less margin of error. Also it has been shown that the reactive force against the firefighters on the nozzle is much less

        Than SOME fog nozzles...you know none of this crap applies to low pressure combo nozzles now does it???

        //FDNY uses them everyday to fight fires ranging from houses to high rises. They see more fire in one year than you will probably see in your career.

        And they knock off more guys too! They just started to provide EMS, wear bunker pants, buy imagers, etc, so they a few decades behind the rest of fire service, let's not hold that against them.

        Fire activity isn't something to brag about it is a living example of a failure to perform the whole task of the fire service. Try a few codes and sprinklers.

        Gee, LA, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, Miami, Chicago, LA County, Philly, Pittsburgh, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Phoenix, (should I keep listing?) etc, all see more fires combined that FDNY and use fog nozzles everyday. I'm sure there was point you were trying to make wasn't there? The point is the como works just fine.

        I'll take LA as an example any day over any other big city FD, 15 years without a LODD makes them first place in the FS in my book.

        Safey has more value than activity.

        Comment


        • #19
          LHS just for the record I am NOT affiliated with the Syracuse Fire Department. They are a fine organization and I respect them. That is why I wanted to set that straight. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours.

          As for LA, look at the age of the city and the codes that were put in place. New York City, Boston, Philadelphia are on totally different footing than Los Angeles. I agree that one of the missions of the fire department should be to educate and enforce codes to reduce fires. However, some people don't listen and your codes are only as good as the people that enforce them and write them.

          Comment


          • #20
            The fire departments are handling EMS, hazmat, fire prevention, public relations, and of course fire suppression. Gone are the days when all we did was just fight fires. As a consequence we cannot trust that a firefighter can be "all knowing" when it is appropriate to modify the stream on an interior operation.

            Horse Pucky.

            Firefighting is not that hard. Firefighters with an average amount of common sense and willingness to learn, good "book" instruction, and good officers and senior firefighters who pass on their experiences to the new guys in a positive and progressive manner does wonders.

            They might not get everyone right on their first fires, but with the a good background they'll figure out their mistakes real quick and soon become good jakes.

            It may be "dummy proofing" as you call it but what are the real disadvantages of a straight bore?

            -- Lack of ability of nozzle man to adjust flow and stream shape as appropriate to conditions. (Note, I make comparisons usually to an Automatic Combination nozzle)

            -- Requires greater coordination with pump operator to achieve desired flow & proper nozzle pressure.

            -- Requires pump operator to gate back lines when multiple lines of different length and diameter are being operated to insure proper pressure on the smoothbores (remember, too much pressure and you've blown you arguement for "less nozzle reaction" out of the water, while too little produces are very weak stream that the nozzle man can do nothing to improve)

            -- Lack of ability to conduct direct and indirect fog attack when appropriate

            -- The Automatic Combination nozzle can do everything a smoothbore can, except pass a dead mouse from a standpipe through. A smoothbore can't do much of what an auto can, and can't do those tasks better.

            SB nozzles use less pressure
            Usually. Although 75psi auto nozzles and and a 50 to 60psi smoothbore aren't that far off in pressure.

            are more effective at penetrating to the seat of the fire,
            Compared to an automatic nozzle on straight stream? Probably not much, unless you have so much fire you shouldn't be in the same fire compartment. Outside masterstream operations *might* be a different matter if you choose the right tips and flow for conditions.

            produce less steam,
            Steam is not a bad thing. Lots of steam is a bad thing only if you're in the fire compartment with it.

            Someone has said it's battle of GPM v. BTUs. That's not quite right -- it's a battle of BTUs removed from the fire.

            By definition, 1 BTU raises one pound of water on degree. However, it takes 970 BTUs to turn one pound of 212 degree water to steam.

            Let's assume your water comes out the hose at 65 degrees. 8.34 lbs/gallon is the weight of water. To bring that gallon from 65 to 212 degrees is a 147 degree difference.
            147 * 8.34 = 1225 BTUs. Now convert that gallon to steam, you've sucked a total of 9,335BTUs.

            Want to put out a fire without making steam? Well then, you have to apply 7.5 times more water to absorb the same amount of heat.

            and have less margin of error.
            ?????

            Also it has been shown that the reactive force against the firefighters on the nozzle is much less, which helps reduce fatigue.

            This arguement shows some of the confusion that arises in this topic.

            Nozzle reaction is *only* less *if* your comparing straight steam to smoothbores. If you compare smoothbores to narrow fogs or wide fogs, the fogs have much lower reaction.

            And a straight stream doesn't act significantly differently in reach or steam generation than a smoothbore. Even the reaction force isn't that much different...

            160gpm
            7/8" tip @ 50psi = 60lbs of reaction
            75psi Automatic Combo set to straight stream = 70lbs
            100psi Automatic Combo set to straight stream = 81lbs.

            Want to see the reaction force for a higher flow?
            Well, hold on a minute, I got to shut down the smoothbore, switch it to the 15/16" tip, and open up the line
            15/16" tip @ 38psi = 52lbs reaction, 160gpm
            Hey wait, this doesn't feel right..."Engine 1 pump operator, we need more pressure on this line"
            "Which line?"
            "The one where on."
            "Well, how much do you need?"
            "Well, we switched to a 15/16" tip"
            "Ok, give me a sec."

            185gpm
            15/16" tip @ 50psi = 69lbs reaction
            75psi automatic on straight stream = 81lbs
            100psi automatic on straight stream = 93lbs

            (The crew on the automatics didn't have to talk to the pump operator. He set the discharge pressure on the pump at the maximum needed to flow full volume to his handline which had the most friction loss/elevation loss and left all the gates wide opened. See the nozzles move the control of pressure and volume out to the nozzle team. Pump op stays around the truck helping changing air bottles, etc and keeping an eye that discharge volume doesn't excede supply.)

            I believe I can speak for many when I say that we just don't have the staffing levels to tire out our personnel on lines of higher pressure.
            Ok, and how long are we operating these lines? 20 minutes at most before your bottle is out?

            I know, it's an extra 10 or 12lbs of reaction if you bought the low pressure autos. And I know, what, in average house fire we advance a charged line what, 30'? 50' or 60' inside if it's a big house or small commercial building?

            Due to the increase in the use of synthetic materials in building and furnishing homes, fires are burning hotter than ever before.

            Ok, has anyone ever taken a look at furniture from 1970? Can you say foam rubber?

            Energy efficient methods are sealing the fire in and not allowing it to flashover prior to the engine's arrival.

            Ok, let's see, well, wasn't it 1973 when the first energy crisis hit and people started the buttoning up their houses? Or was it in the late 70s when Jimmy Carter asked us to put on a sweater and turn down the thermostat. "Todays" houses have been with us in furnishings and energy efficiency for 30 years.

            I'd much rather my guys have a stream that will penetrate the heavy heat and disrupt the thermal barrier.

            I'm assuming you meant *not* disrupt the thermal barrier (and I do my fair share of typos ) Sometimes that's appropriate.

            On the other hand, what is that thermal barrier? Is the area of the room where the surfaces are being heated, producing more and more combustible gases? Is the area that heat is building up towards the auto-ignition temperature. Is the area that if your lucky you will see some rollovers that precede it flashing over?

            Is it a bad thing to disturb it and break up the chain reaction that is the fire trying to flashover?

            All this while not producing steam which will penetrate their gear and cause horrible burns.

            OK. All Probies repeat after me, "We do not use fog tactics in an unventilated compartment in which we are in." Very good class.


            FDNY uses them everyday to fight fires ranging from houses to high rises. They see more fire in one year than you will probably see in your career. Apparently the things must work.

            And they also arrive with more manpower in a more timely manner on a typical fire than most career firefighters will see in their careers.

            The tactics work well for FDNY, and they use aggressive VES and search crews ahead of the hose team. They arrive timely enough with enough resources for their both to be viable life and the resources to find and rescue it. They have the manpower on the 1st alarm to move in 2 2.5" lines on most fires. They are not your average department.

            A much more common scenario is for a single three man engine to arrive at a vented room & contents fire. Yep, a smoothbore can put it out. Or with the auto nozzle, the officer & nozzle man can do a quick interior sizeup, hit the hall with the straight stream to knock any fire back and cool the hall to reduce the chance of roll/flashover. Get to the room door, open up to a narrow fog, and a) the fog puts fire out faster by absorbing more BTUs and b) pushes the fire, steam, and smoke out the vented window. Since the pump op just set-and-forget the pump since he doesn't have to adjust pressures for the smoothbore, he can have the PPV setup trying to remove the smoke & heat from the building that is endangering anyone trapped inside, and the officer & nob have the direct problem of the fire knocked down. And about know you hear the sirens of your next approaching company. (Well, OK, we had a Chief too to meet two in/two out.)

            The *only* valid arguement I have ever heard that I can't defend an auto nozzle against is "debris and dead mice" in standpipes. Fortunately, most of the nation doesn't operate of standpipes...and those that do regularly probably have better and quicker staffing levels.

            Comment


            • #21
              Dalmation90 you made some very good points. I have no problem admitting that. Right now our department has 3 combo nozzles and 1 straight bore on our preconnects. We probably should keep it that way.

              Comment


              • #22
                Every hose line in my department has a combination nozel EXCEPT the high rise pack. I'd rather enter with a combination because of the following:
                1. I can use the straight stream to knock down the fire whenever warranted, or vice versa
                and
                2. Immediate ventilation. Once the fire has been knocked down, theres no way you are going to be able to vent hydraulically with a straight stream, only a fog pattern. I like both so I would much rather go in with a combination nozel. Its the best of both worlds.

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                • #23
                  Great post Matt!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    *blush*
                    Thanks Larry...
                    You mean we actually get along occasionally here

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Larry,

                      Your comments about the FDNY,

                      //"And they knock off more guys too! They just started to provide EMS, wear bunker pants, buy imagers, etc, so they a few decades behind the rest of fire service, let's not hold that against them.

                      Fire activity isn't something to brag about it is a living example of a failure to perform the whole task of the fire service. Try a few codes and sprinklers. //"

                      How can you put your foot in your mouth when your head is up your ***?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        E29lt

                        Very intelligent post on this topic, the truth sucks don't it?

                        [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-20-2001).]

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          LHS (Larry)

                          The fact that you would knock any department based on the loss of brother firefighters has brought you below any and all of the bean counters, administrators and budget makers of every municipality in the nation.

                          The very men we choose to never forget for their sacrifices, you have chosen to use in an attempt to place a black mark on one of the finest departments on the planet.

                          I ask anyone on this forum to support your statement in regards to the FDNY, and I quote "And they knock off more guys too! "

                          You have shamed our fallen, their families and yourself. I once read your posts with an open mind, I was foolish. You are a hack and have no place in the fire community.

                          If you want to knock a department, begin with your own. They have placed you among their ranks and for that they should be ashamed.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            E229lt

                            "Well your either rude or from New York." A quote from a movie. I never figured you could stay on topic. The topic is nozzles.

                            Just because FDNY has lots of fires or does something is no reason for the rest of the fire service to emulate them. Certainly nozzle choice or the size of the hose it is attached to would not make much sense.

                            FDNY doesn't even use the same nozzles as Philly the 2nd busiest firefighting department. But let's not confuse runs with firefighting experience. Less than 3% of Phillys runs were structure fires. Each shift only averages 14 structure fire initial attacks per station, per year. I know most of the Volunteers see that kind of action. Philly only averages 32 multple alarm fires a year. Divide that by 3.3 shifts and 60 some odd stations. We are talking about something most of their firefighters rarely see. FDNY's numbers work out the same way. However, Philly's civilian death and injury numbers are 5 to 14 times higher than anyone elses.

                            Chicago doesn't agree with your choice in nozzles nor do all the places I previously mentioned. Odds are E229lt you don't know why you use the hose or nozzle sizes you use either, other than they are on the rig. The average Joe in a big city department doesn't have much if any say in those matters, now does he?

                            In the suburbs and small towns in the US most of us have a say. Most of the world does not place 30 guys on scene in a few minutes, nor vent in front or above the attack crew.

                            The world of 3 to 6 guy initial attacks is where most fire departments live. We use preconnects, you don't. We forward lay your reverse lay...and it goes on and on. Other communities follow and enforce the codes and live with modern construction, that is the norm.

                            With all FDNY's fires and alleged experience just think how many guys the rest of the fire service would knock off following the same tactics with 3 to 6 guys on scene? Even with all that so called hard to verify fire experience and written SOPS you all have not figured out what tip or hose to use without fatal consequences. If the fire service is going to base a nozzle choice on something it better be for more than "FDNY uses them."

                            Part of honoring the dead is to make sure something was learned and equipment or procedures changed to make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes.

                            Think about it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              #1- For all of you who could stay on topic, thank you for your input.

                              #2- For those of you who say I needed to do some research before I start asking questions, what better way to learn than from the people who actually use the equipment/tactics? I am a rookie and am only trying to learn my job better so I can help the people that depend on me better. I don't appreciate the attacks.

                              ------------------
                              -FF D. Betka
                              NSFD
                              Norton Shores, MI

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It is always the "arm-chair quarterback" who has all the right answers.

                                Too all the brothers in New York, forget what you have been doing. According to these posts your experience is not credible and you don't know what you are doing. Stop listening to guys like Andy Fredericks and Vincent Dunn. They have no idea what they are talking about. Remember, their experience is not credible.

                                Take notes from the arm-chair quarterbacks on these posts and change your ways. These are the guys that have the "real" experience and knowledge. Remember, they have all done what you do, and this makes them more that qualified to tell you how backwards and incompetent you are. But remember, just because the arm-chair quarterback says it should be done a certain way based on his god-like knowledge and supreme experience does not mean he is correct either.

                                Good luck Brothers!

                                Comment

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