Solid stream nozzles on initial attack

[Fireboy422]

Who uses solid stream nozzles on initial attacks?
What about fog stream thermal breaking? What about the damage done by the force of solid streams? Any feedback?

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-FF D. Betka
NSFD
Norton Shores, MI

[cfr3504]

In my area, every department that I know of uses automatic fog nozzles on their attack lines. I can't think of a department around here that uses smooth bore nozzles, most only have them on the truck for ISO, if they have them at all.

[ArmyTruckCompany]

My volunteer outfit has both 1.75 and 2 inch attack lines on our attack rig. There are fog nozzles on all of them except one of the 2 inch lines, which has a 15/16 FDNY style smoothbore. This is a 200' line, and with the smoothbore, is so easy to handle with two people....I may have the math wrong, but if I remember correctly, we pump it at 90psi getting about 50 at the tip, and 178 gpm. This line kicks ***. Interior Damage is usually limited due to quick knockdown.

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"Loyalty above all else, except honor."

[MB1213635]

We run with all Smoothbore on our lines except the trash line. Smoothbores are great when used properly. They pack a hefty punch at a lower psi than most automatic nozzles and are easier to handle. Also, there is usually a quicker knockdown than with an automatic nozzle based on the difference in applications of the two different streams.

[Fireman488]

I agree 100% with MB1213635...smooth bores are great for all of the reasons listed.

Just ask FDNY; it is their nozzle of choice for most jobs.

Stay low and stay safe,

Fireman488

[Truckie5553]

First off i must say that you should really research your topics before you make a statement about it. If you take a fog pattern and aim it into the thermal barrier you will inturn cause thermal inversion. This is where you cause all of the superheated gases to turn drop from the ceiling onto you. By doing this you have just increased the temp. around you head from 210F to nearly 1000F+.

With a smoothbore you receive 2 advantages. First you get the same gpm of an 1-3/4" at 200 psi with only using 90psi. This allows for better movement and control of the handline inside without the crew having to work themselves to death to move and control it. Secondly, with the smooth bore cone of water you are generating, you are using your stream as a knife in the thermal barrier in which when you aim you stream into it, it will break this apart and we all know that if we can break the superheated gases away from the fire, the heat inside will lower much faster.

Also remember with the smooth bore you get the stream that allows you to penetrate directly into the seat of the fire, thus breaking your fuel apart. So far i have defeated 2 of the 3 parts of the fire triangle and have done this with less work on the crew and give them better visibility inside. This brings me to my next point.

The next time you can do a training burn do this exercise. Set a 1 room contents fire that is just starting to rollover. Then make 2 different attacks, one with a fog pattern and then use the smooth bore. The fog will cause your visibility to decrease as all of the smoke, steam and heat drops on you and you go into 0 visibility. When you use the smooth bore, the barrier will not drop therefore not causing the high heat and steam to drop giving you and your crews inside better visibility.

Finally the last point i would like to make on this topic is the first time you feel the heat you drop onto yourself from using this fog stream in the thermal barrier, think about what you just did to that victim that was clinging to life just inside the door of that room. When all of thoses gases drop to the floor, one breath of air into their lungs and its all over.

All of these methods i have used in live training and actual fires. These work well for me as well as others. My best advise is to use both in the same test. If you do a 1 room content fire, use the safe type of fire for both attacks. Note both methods, affects, record temps of the fire if possible, take pressure readings for your hoses that use, and then gather all of you readings and decide with one you think works best from there.

If you would like to chat more about this topic in detail, feel free to email me.

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Captain James Collier
McMahan Fire Rescue
KCTCS Area 6 Instructor

[LHS*]

Gee I can do all the above with a low pressure fog nozzle in the straight stream position and have more flexibility. Just ak 99% of the nations fire service.

[Staylow]

Fireboy, this topic is asked on these forums every couple of months. The same people give the same opinions every time. With that said, let me give you my opinion. Briefly stated, I prefer the smoothbore for many of the same reasons given above.

But, I believe that the person at the end of the hose line is more important than the nozzle. A quick response, followed by an aggressive attack are what put out the great majority of fires we face. Not the nozzle. The guy who crawls down the hall to the seat of the fire will not ,most of time, care which nozzle is at the end of his hose. Nor will it matter, most of the time.

Train with what equipment you have in order to become an aggressive fireman. With time and experience you will find out which tool works best for you. Who knows! Maybe at that time you will pick the smoothbore nozzle and be content in knowing that you have made the correct choice, while 99% of your peers have not.

Good Luck !

[Smokeetr4]

I always love this debate when it comes up. It almost resembles a political debate following party lines. The smoothies vs. the foggies. I have been in the fire service for a while now and will always be on the smoothbore side. I have used both and done a lot of research on both and for sheer controllability and knockdown potential the smoothbore nozzle wins hands down. In my opinion fog nozzles have a limited place in interior firefighting. Without getting too technical, the potential for steam production coupled with the increased discharge pressures make this choice of weapons poor at best. Lets face it--it's all about GPM's vs. BTU's. No matter what an attack line with a smooth bore or low pressure fog nozzle delivers more GPM with less discharge pressure and more penetrating power and reach than a comparable line with a fog nozzle. Use the formulas and do the math. I am not dismissing fog nozzles entirely, in fact they do have their place in the toolbox. Not inside though. In regards to causing damage,the building is on fire!!!!! and you're worried about damage? Hmmm. Let the debate continue........

[Corvin]

We recently tried some "low friction" hose in conjunction with a couple of the low pressure fog nozzles recently placed in service.

We has significant problems with this pairing. Hoze kinking increased notably, we felt even residential doors were pinching them closed more. Our hydrant pressures are great and were actually having to gate down pressures at idle.

The nozzles stayed, the hose was removed from service. Anyone else with similar issues with the low pressure/high volume delivery concept or was it just a bunch of crusty Iowans complaining about change?

Chris

[JohnM]

We use s/b nozzles only on 3" lines.(They used to be 2 1/2" but that is an whole different discussion). I wish we used s/b nozzles on our high rise packs, but we use the WORST choice, automatics. I don't have any real bad heart burn about autos on preconnects, but I want a s/b in a high rise situation. Less nozzle reaction, more flow, much less chance of standpipe debris clogging the nozzle, easier to extend the line, lighter to hump around in the bag. And so simple. Some people have told me "We need to do a lot of training to use s/b nozzles". Seems simple to me, put the wet stuff on the red stuff, and things will work out fine! And a lot of departments who see a bunch of fire swear by them. Sounds good to me. Our current officers promply yanked our s/b tips off our master stream devices, even from the aerial platform! So you know what I'm up against here!

[Plug-Ugly]

I use automatic adjustable fogs on all my initial attack lines cuz that's what we got. The only solid tips we have are the old 2 1/2" playpipes. I kind of like them, they keep ol' Plug-Ugly's arms in shape .

[LHS*]

That's unfair talking about kinking with low pressure nozzles or smooth bores. You are adding too much fact to an emotional decision.

You know if this steaming thing is such a big deal with a combination bozzle, then the smooth bore is the ideal nozzle. You don't have to teach your people the difficult task of stream selection, just offer them a dummy proof smooth bore tip and lots of kinks.

I've never seen an interior attack with the nozzle on fog making steam. Narrow stream or straight stream yes, fog nope. I guess it is a regional training issue. I had no idea people would be dumb enough to use the nozzle in such a manner, if they in fact are.

If you can't trust your people to do the right thing then removing booster reels and offering smooth bore tips is the only answer.

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[Truckie5553]

LHS!!!!!!!

All im going to say is if you think that a fog pattern will not cause steam and a smooth bore will, then you have never been inside.

And just for the record, do you even know where the fog nozzle orginated from and the orginal use for it? If you dont, then maybe you should do some research and find out. You will be pleasently surprised.

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Captain James Collier
McMahan Fire Rescue
KCTCS Area 6 Instructor

[LHS*]

//if you thinkl a fog ozzle won't create a steam buen,

You mean an improperly applied stream? Did I say that somewhere? Does a straigt stream out of a combo nozzle create steam? Anymore than a SB tip? How much more?

Oh that's right Truckee... everyone who uses a combo nozzle goes in in fog or wide fog and never shuts the nozzle off because they are stupid. Even when they get burned by steam they keep squirtin'

No, 95% use a straight stream and or a narrow fog in pulses and they know what they are doing and don't make any more steam than a SB. And they out number the SB guys 99 to 1 in the US fire service.

Gee, the fog nozzle was patented during the civil war. I don't give a damn how they used it then. If you are refering to Lloyd Layman you are off by a hundred years, for his application or ship board use. The Fog Hog etc was out before he ever used one.

But go ahwead and set me straight.

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[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-18-2001).]