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The Vindicator , I saw it and it works

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  • The Vindicator , I saw it and it works

    Its real interesting to see the altitude used against this Vindicator nozzle. Why is everyone being so hard on a company trying to compete in the nozzle business world? Because it doesn't look like the traditional looking smooth bore or fog nozzle. TFT came out with the Blitz Fire and I didn't hear any whining about it. That thing doesn't look like any fire appliance I have ever seen before yet there is no one talking about it negatively on the forum. Is it because TFT has been around years?
    I had the privilege to go to a Vindicator class this week in Lewisville Texas to get a first hand look at what the Vindicator is all about. I was impressed. Kirk does a real thorough job in his presentation. His nozzle does do the flows that he claims.

    1-3/4" Snap tite Ponn Conquest 200' 345 gpm
    Old 1-3/4" hose (brand unknown but not Conquest 200' 300 gpm. I have done some of the same flows with big smooth bores so why is it not possible for the Vindicator to do the same? Because it looks different? I handled the V at various flows ranging from 200 to 345 on 1-3/4" and 300 to 500 ond 2-1/2" by myself and found it to be a real kick butt nozzle. The nozzle reaction is significantly less at the lower flows than its competitors at the same flow and somewhat less at the higher flows (400 to 500 gpm) It is the best foam aspirating nozzle I have ever seen and it is built directly into the nozzle so you don't even have to clip on the tube. It is ready to go.
    If you believe in calibrated flow meters then you will see that this is the real thing.

    And talk about a big water master stream attack. This nozzle leaves a footprint that looks like the main body of the stream is hitting the ground. We measured off a 1250 gpm stream of 245 feet. Not bad for a funny looking nozzle.

    On a somewhat unrelated topic. What's with all the bad talk about the snap tite ponn Conquest hose. It feels just as light as all other 1-3/4" hose , it looks the same.

    I have heard booth sides of the argument on how big this hose really is. Who gives a rats A---. The hose moves a ton of water. Instead of complain about it we should be checking in to getting some.

    Because I teach big water stuff I wanted to see first hand if the Vindicator nozzle was something I would like to show in my class along with others(smoothbore and automatics). I am sold on it and will be including it from now on . I recommend that anyone that is truly interested in being on the cutting edge in water movement try to attend a Vindicator class to do so.

    This is just my 2 cents.

  • #2
    Gee Paul, 350 gpm out of a crosslay?

    If not was it a real test if almost all fires are fought from crosslays in the US fire service?

    If we use different hose than the FD, different EP's different plumbing what have we really proved? Only that it you change everthing you do and never intend to do you could get these results. If the plumbing won't do it who cares what the hose and nozzle combination is capable of? I doubt people will replumb the rig to change nozzles.

    And when you flowed a 1 1/4 and 1 3/4" tip on the same line at the same pressure you flowed how much??

    When you flowed a fixed flow 50 psi NP 350 gpm fog tip on the same line at the same pressures it flowed?

    Which of the streams had better reach? And by how much?

    Reach allegedly is a function of NP highest NP wins. What do you give up for lower reaction and higher flow??

    //The nozzle reaction is significantly less at the lower flows than its competitors at the same flow

    As long as we are being fair, Were all nozzles at the same NP or is this another apples and oranges comparison? When you measured the reaction how much less was it? You know a Scott Cook type test with real certified instruments?

    //What's with all the bad talk about the snap tite ponn Conquest hose. It feels just as light as all other 1-3/4" hose , it looks the same.

    I think the point was truth in advertising. If you are selling 2 inch hose label it as such. If it is 1 3/4" hose then it shouldn't be larger than 2 inch in diameter should it? So how big was it?

    Who cares? Who cares what the nozzle flows or which nozzle has the most reaction? Someone states it has less reaction. Sure it does, the nozzle pressure is lower. The others could have less reaction too if compared apples to apples not apples to oranges. You pay a premium price thinking your getting kick tail top secret hose, when in fact it flows what everyone else’s properly labeled hose flows at a lower cost.

    So what do you give up with oversized hose? Drag weight, hose pack weigh more, water weight in the line, remember 2 or 3 guys have to move this thing in most FD's. If those things do no matter, then why should reaction matter? If the hose line beats you up on the way to the fire..will you notice the difference? If the excuse for 1 3/4" is it flows more with less weight than 2" or 2 1/2" and you are using 2 1/8 inch hose is the arguement still valid?

    Level field seem fair? Pay less get more? You want the nozzle you have to flow more at less reaction? Send it in to the manufacturer and have them make it lower pressure and higher flowing and keep a bunch of money in your pocket. Or with selector flows and turbo jets you can do it yourself and not spend a dime.

    Or throw perfectly good nozzles away and start over. Big Pauley has proved SB and master stream tips as handlines are perfectly capable of flowing big water. Stuff you already own. Now take the next step and modify a few and show the world the difference, seems logical to me..the next step.

    There are two sides to the argument.

    Gee 345 gpm on a room and contents fire in someone's house eh? WHY?

    At what point are you doing water damage and at what point putting the fire out? IS SOMEONE OUT THERE HAVING TROUBLE PUTTING OUT residential room and contents FIRES OUT AT 150 TO 200 GPM??

    Well I know where one Vindicator is on almost every fire truck in the department. When they leave the compartments that will be the day many will get in line and sing the praises. The firefighters of the nation's 3rd largest FD have a choice and it seems obvious they are making it, using the nozzles of the 70's, 80's and 90's. Right now it serves only as a foam tip on almost every rig carrying it. Sounds like the firefighers are voting with their actions. Admin is voting 5 to 1 with their budget too. Like there guy said after usig one on a fire you run out of water faster and felt so strongly about it he put it in the union paper. One guys opion but also one guys reality.

    Go play with every nozzle and compare equally. The same argument that gets nozzle salesman X in is his argument about your nozzles have an "island in the stream", the next guy comes in and says oh you don't understand we have a "sweet spot" see we flow more at this pressure range, the next guy comes in and compares his 75 psi job and say see that nozzle you just bought without the "island in the stream" doesn't flow water that this nozzle flows and we can beat the guy with the "sweet spot" too, then a guy comes in and says you don't need that flow ring, everyone is going to fixed flow...right after you switch you run out of water on overhaul trying to make a decent low flow stream to reach the eves with the fixed high flow tip, then the next guy comes in and says that 75 psi job can't keep up with my 60 psi job with a bigger hole, Then your guys go out with a Turbo Jet, KK, or Select-o-Flow set at 250 and only pump it at 150 gpm and find out it has the lowest nozzle reaction of any fog nozzle they own at 150 gpm...plus they didn't spend a dime. Then someone sees a smooth bore and goes through the whole thing again. More flow.. less reaction…less reach but good enough. Then mr fixed flow show up with his "advanced technology nozzle" that looks just like the PDQ of old (45 years go) and tells you about fewer moving parts and how all the nozzles in america are breaking and his costs less...one of your guys says doesn't it cost less to keep what we own, heck we only have one structure fire initial a month...but of course he's blown off,

    At some point the reality of the flow ring or automatic comes back to you, your pump operators aren't that good, either the nozzle needs to do the thinking or the nozzleman does turning the ring on the nozzle to make a decent stream.

    If you pump what the nozzle charts say the nozzles pretty much do as advertised. Why if you don't pump enough now on your existing nozzles do you think the plague of easy won't take over again on the new nozzle and next thing you know you are pumping to little to it again???

    Fixed flow tips unlike automatics and ring controlled flow nozzles need the nozzle pressure to be pretty close to what the nozzle is rated at in order to flow what is advertised and provide the reach and reaction. If your pump operator is off you lose reach, or have a line you can't hold, or end up with less flow than intended.

    At some point your pump operator decides to fill his tank and you'll watch your line go to nothing, when it is finally full the line will slap you in the face. The big sin of the automatic or turbo jet style was you always had a great stream just it didn’t always flow as much water. So which one you want to give up?

    What is worse many combinations result in line kinking because the engine pressures are so low. Like a 200 foot 2 1/2" line with a 1" smooth bore tip. EP is 66 to 70 psi depending on the hydraulics. No relief valve on earth can be set to maintain that pressure. First guy shuts a line off you are over pressurized big time. Soon you’ll be hearing the old terms more pressure less pressure again.

    I know Paul’s FD and surrounding FD’s every engineer does his own thing from 100 psi EP to 200 psi EP on the same line ad same fire. It is nationwide. The problem ain’t the nozzle it is the operator of the pump and the crew saying that is too much to handle. Soon it isn’t an issue of what is in the hydraulics book but what is acceptable peer pressure of the group. Even department SOPs are not followed.

    Like I've said a few hundred times, every nozzle on `earth is fighting fire somewhere successfully.


    • #3
      The Vindicator, I saw it and it works

      OK. I know what you mean by "I saw it", but what do you mean by "it works"?

      It flows the water they say it will flow?


      It puts out the fire better than the Elkharts, TFTs, Akrons and smoothbores we already have?


      • #4
        Larry, what the hell are you talking about? All I said was that I liked the Vindicator nozzle.


        • #5
          Mongo, The nozzle performed well on the drill field. I was satisfied that it flowed the water it s builder claimed it would, I was satisfied it had what felt like a lower nozzle reaction at the flow range I mentioned. I did not mention that the stream in just about all flows equaled or slightly out reached other,(a smooth bore and a automatic) I did not say anything about whether or not it was better than any other make nozzle, and finally a nozzle is only a part of the equation on how well a fire is extinguished. The firefighter still has to perform. It sounds like youhave a firm opinion on this topic . Is it based on looks, propoganda or what? Did you do any flow tests. Are you a firefighter or a salesman? You still don't want to talk about that.
          I have not used it on a fire yet but am confident it will do just fine. It sounds like you have a great interest in the Vindicator nozzle. I did so I went to see what it was all about. Give it a chance see what it is and then make your decision.


          • #6
            I did not say anything about whether or not it was better than any other make nozzle

            That's why I asked.

            The firefighter still has to perform.


            It sounds like youhave a firm opinion on this topic.

            Nope, just a lot of questions.

            Are you a firefighter or a salesman? You still don't want to talk about that.

            Firefighter, I've said that on several occasions. Don't sell anything except the stuff I mentioned in the other Vindicator forum (kids fundraiser stuff).

            It sounds like you have a great interest in the Vindicator nozzle.

            Yep, if Dallas uses them chances are 99% we'll get them.

            Give it a chance see what it is and then make your decision.

            I will, just getting other info.


            • #7
              Mongo, talk to them they are good people. Looking forward to meeting you some day.


              • #8

                I continue to wonder why you go off on your tangents about the Vindicator. How can you justify all of your negatvity about that nozzle and then end many of your posts with: "Like I've said a few hundred times, every nozzle on `earth is fighting fire somewhere successfully." If you truly believe that why the attacks on the Vindicator?

                I have been in the class / sales presentation done by Kirk Allen. He never once said that the Vindicator was the answer to every situation. He never once said to get rid of everything else. What he did say, and then proved with a calibrated flow meter (I helped calibrate it and I am no stranger to flow meters) is that the Vindicator will flow a lot of water. The added benefit is that the nozzle reaction feels a lot less.

                I'm not sure how you can justify your point of not needing 345 gpm in a structure fire as an attack on the Vindicator when I have heard you say here and in your former magazine that one advantage to the automatic was that it vould flow upwards of 350 gpm through a 1 3/4" line. Does that amount of water coming from an auto nozzle do less damage in the hands of a poor nozzle operator than a Vindicator would under similar conditions?

                I also love the continual mention of reach as a negative for Vindicators and low pressure combo nozzles. How much reach do I need in a 1500 sq. ft. house? Perhpas if it was totally open inside...40 feet? Are you telling me that I can't flow farther than 40 feet with my low flow combo or a Vindicator? You know as well as I do that is false.

                My feeling on this whole nozzle issue is this:

                1) Maximize the potential of what you have right now.

                2) If there is something you have proven by yourself to be better and you want it...work for the change.

                3) Make up your own mind...salespeople and others have agendas to push, whether to sell nozzles or their ideas through consulting, seminars or whatever.

                Can you just once, without all of your retoric, tell why you have such a negative attitude about the Vindicator? I hope since you always want fact based answers you can supply fact based answers for this question.
                I want to know why you don't like it, not why so and so department doesn't like it. Have you ever used one? Where? At an actual fire or parking lot demo or what?

                By the way, I do not now nor have I ever sold any type of fire equipment. Nor do I run a consulting business. My only motives are to seek answers to questions.



                • #9

                  Sorry I was talking about nozzles in general, I agree with you. I don't recall saying anything negative about a vindicator today, please tell me where.


                  • #10
                    /If we use different hose than the FD, different EP's different plumbing what have we really proved?/

                    For the record, I do not go to a department trying to prove anything. My primary goal is to educate all of the problems I have encountered in the field. 90% of that has nothing to do with our product.

                    The referenced classes given in Lewisville, TX were done with their engines (4 engines, 2 Quints, 1 Ladder), their hose (some Conquest some not), their pre-connects (not side discharges) their engine pressures (not our recomendations), and their nozzles.

                    Every rig reflected different results because of plumbing, hose and nozzles. Pump charts were created specific to each rig for the pre-connects. I would venture to say that any one who were to contact that department about everything involved in moving water they would be quite pleased with what they "Know"!

                    Also for the record, When I travel and offer classes or demonstrations I typically bring Neidner, Angus, Snap-tite Conquest and National Hose. Why? To show the importance of "KNOWING" your FL by showing the departments the huge difference in FL between manufactures. As far as using one exclusive hose, I simply use what ever the department wants. They are calling the shots!

                    Which Hose do I prefer? Conquest, just as every other nozzle manufactures salespeople are using! It has less FL than the others and regardless of the claims of hose competitors, it is not 2" hose!

                    I hope everyone has a happy Easter and may God Bless all of you!

                    Be Nice

                    Kirk Allen
                    First Strike Technologies, Inc


                    • #11
                      Golly, did I say you did???

                      For the record, I don't care.


                      • #12
                        Paulie, do you have a big V to bring to WA @ the end of the month ?
                        Thanks for the great class in Bellingham.
                        (the piercing nozzle guy)


                        • #13
                          Mikus34 Not yet but I am working on it.


                          • #14
                            Hey Paulie, Thanks for the info I've was hoping you would review it for us. Anyone out there that has not had Paulies class CALL HIM ASAP, outstanding! I was in the class you did behind the LV station a year or two ago, I was working for the Nellis AFB FD at the time.



                            • #15
                              I'm glad to hear that Paulie likes the "V" nozzle, but why not, he's the "Big Water Guy" and that is what it will flow.


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