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The Vindicator , I saw it and it works

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  • #46
    "flows more water at a lower reaction force"..."That is simply untrue."
    Please share with us the name of the nozzle With the flow the same that has a lower reaction force.

    "...14,000 gpm monitor..."

    Again we are talking about structural firefighting, not industry or marine, or is this a rig that Fallon owns.

    "...low nozzle reaction the vindicator even beats smoothbore nozzles."...Not always

    Again with the same flow show me how the smooth bore is less. Please use a practical example not a 3" tip at 2 psi or something like that.

    "multiple line operation? "

    It is called feathering and gating any engineer should be able to do it

    As for the TFT partly closed or a selectable gallonage nozzle being a nightmare for the engineer. As the flows change on the different nozzles you will be adding or taking water away from the other lines. Unless the engineer is told what is going on he will be unable to gate and feather the lines to their correct pressure. With the tft partly shut down you have no idea what the flow is. The relief valve should be able to handle an increase in pressure but the drop in flow could make another crews line all but useless.

    Comment


    • #47
      //multiple line operation? "

      It is called feathering and gating any engineer should be able to do it


      So tell us how step by step.

      Comment


      • #48
        Here is one silly example:

        Oh, I'm sorry, if getting Stafford close to 3/4 of a million dollars to buy stuff...when they didn't have any hope of getting any money...walking in and talking to the mayor for 90 minutes and coming out with approval..when prior to meeting I was told by the Chief they were screwed no matter what they did... isn't important to the buying process, then I guess I wasn't any help.

        I guess money just grows on trees where you come from.

        Comment


        • #49
          LHS:
          Like I said, your consulting to get departments money is what you helped the department do. That hardly constitutes helping them buy our product, but......since you now claim to have helped departments buy Vindicators I guess we can promote that even Larry Stevens promotes our product.

          So now that we know your involvement in Stafford, which your response was "perfectly" predicted, was this the same role you had in Houston? What is your definiation of the word "IS"?

          Larry, getting paid to find a department money is what you do and thats great for both you and the departments. God Bless your efforts. Im glad that your able to help those who need it and at the same time you can make a living at it.

          ------------------
          Kirk Allen
          First Strike Technologies, Inc

          Comment


          • #50
            //That would hardly constitute helping a department buy a specific product.

            So how do you put your nozzle in the cross lays of apparatus the FD doesn't own?

            Comment


            • #51
              LHS: Common Sense would tell us that if they dont own an apparatus then you couldn't put a nozzle on the crosslay. Common Sense also tells us they do own apparatus so they could put nozzles on their crosslay!

              Seems simple enough. Regardless, no sense in playing word games. If you would like to take credit for helping Stafford buy Vindicator nozzles then great.

              Since this is a department that you helped buy Vindicators could you PLEASE tell us what they think of them?

              ------------------
              Kirk Allen
              First Strike Technologies, Inc

              [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 05-02-2001).]

              Comment


              • #52
                They think enough of the Vindictor to have one on the crosslay of the new Quint.

                Comment


                • #53
                  LHS: What about the rest of the engines that have two on each rig? Or did you not mention them since they already had those rigs prior to you working with them?



                  ------------------
                  Kirk Allen
                  First Strike Technologies, Inc

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    LHS:
                    /"I made one a couple months back where the natural gas was burning inside." /

                    /Houston Texas /

                    What station were you riding with on this job?

                    I may be wrong but needing fog to approach is one thing when the the valve is near the flame but why would you need fog on an interior gas fire when the valve is on the outside of the structure?

                    Thanks


                    ------------------
                    Kirk Allen
                    First Strike Technologies, Inc

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I was with the chief. You'd have to ask the crews why they did what they did or why.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I'm not quite sure where you are going with this, but here we go.

                        With the first line we are flowing approx 210 GPM with FL @ 9 per 100' for a PDP of 60 (62)

                        Open the discharge and throttle up to 60 psi.

                        Next line 250' 1.75 @ 220 gpm fog PDP of 220 psi (a bit high but we'll be OK)

                        Open second discharge and gate down line one while increasing pressure for the second line.

                        Next, 15/16th at about 180 gpm PDP @ 100 (98)

                        Open discharge 3, while throttling up to maintain other lines unitl you read 100 on the gauge.

                        Last line Vindicator Blitz attack flows about 325 @ 50 (so that's what we'll go with) PDP of 110 (113)

                        Again open up until pressure is achieved while throttling up to maintain pressure.

                        IMPORTANT to set relief valve and you'll have to pay attention and make whatever necessary changes as lines are shut down or changed.

                        Also we are flowing just over 900 GPM at a PDP of 220 depending on the size of your pump you may not be able to do this.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          //With the first line we are flowing approx 210 GPM with FL @ 9 per 100' for a PDP of 60 (62)

                          //Open the discharge and throttle up to 60 psi.

                          Sorry it doesn't work that way, you throttle up to 60 psi odds are they are not flowing the line yet, when they open the discharge your pump pressure will drop to 45 or 50 psi, very good though, you've got one under supplied stream.

                          //Next line 250' 1.75 @ 220 gpm fog PDP of 220 psi (a bit high but we'll be OK)

                          //Open second discharge and gate down line one while increasing pressure for the second line.

                          At a real fire the lines are opening and closing constantly, you won't be able to gate down anything with both lines opening and closing or possibly not flowing at all.

                          //Next, 15/16th at about 180 gpm PDP @ 100 (98)

                          //Open discharge 3, while throttling up to maintain other lines unitl you read 100 on the gauge.

                          Ditto

                          //Last line Vindicator Blitz attack flows about 325 @ 50 (so that's what we'll go with) PDP of 110 (113)

                          //Again open up until pressure is achieved while throttling up to maintain pressure.

                          Ditto again. Now if you could have all four lines sit and flow out in the4 front yard for a few minutes you cluod play rthe gate the lines game, not in real life, you just end up shutting the water offf, over and under supoplied lines. Any other ideas?

                          ///IMPORTANT to set relief valve and you'll have to pay attention and make whatever necessary changes as lines are shut down or changed. Sorry the relief valve canot cover two of the lines due to limited prssure range. The other two will experience pressure surges everytime someone else shuts down or gates their line, so tywo lines are going to be dangerous and the other two just scarry.

                          //Also we are flowing just over 900 GPM at a PDP of 220 depending on the size of your pump you may not be able to do this.

                          What we are at draft, not using at least a 50 psi hydrant?

                          Pretty standard never been there before answer though.

                          Anyone else know how to do this???

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            So what you are telling us is that your scenario is impossible for an engineer to do. I bet some engineers would be pretty upset to find out that what they do on a regular basis is impossible.

                            " you'll have to pay attention and make whatever necessary changes as lines are shut down or changed"

                            That is the key statement in my entire answer. When someone opens a line the pressure will drop slightly, do you just sit their staring at the gauge? NO, you throttle up just slightly until you are at the pressure you want. You have to do that for a one line fire.

                            You'll have to do the best you can. Multiple lines at different pressures are difficult to manage, but it is defiantly possible.

                            So what would you do in that scenario?

                            I also question your selection of lines and nozzles. From the sounds of it you either have a big fire or a lot of exposures. Both scenarios lead to a lot of standing around flowing water, any experienced engineer should be able to handle it.

                            The 1" tip on the 2.5" is useless both 1.75" lines are flowing comparable flows. Go up in tip size or change lines. The first 2.5" is a bit long with that flow for lines over 200' I prefer a wyed line or a larger diameter. The 15/16th is fine. Lastly, if I had only the one vindicator I'd pump it at a higher pressure to get closer to the 400 - 450 GPM range for a better knockdown. I'd also pull the vindicator first and you might not need the other lines.

                            In reference to the relief valve. What would you do not use it so when the 325 GPM vindicator shuts down you send the other lines flying? You have to use the relief valve. Will the other lines feel it, sure. But we teach our firefighters to open and shut lines slowly to avoid water hammer. Two of those lines are only 10 psi apart. If shut down slowly the other line may not even feel it. If your relief valve isn't working properly you may need to get it fixed. Ours both Hale and Waterous will work just fine under those conditions, and I suspect Champion (Darley) will do the same.

                            As just a side note, I have been engineer for several real multiple line fires and haven't had any complaints. I am a state certified FAE and part of the final exam involves gating and feathering a multiple line scenario. I'm confident that I've probably pumped more long leadouts than you have. My career department runs reverse leadouts with dual 3" beds, one wyed to 2 1.75" lines the other wyed to dual 2.5" lines. It isn't uncommon to go 600 + feet if we have a hydrant problem. With Fallon running only 400 calls a year, I personally run more than that just on my shift.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              //So what you are telling us is that your scenario is impossible for an engineer to do.

                              Certainly, the way you described it. How do you set a pressure and gate a flow when the lines are always opening and closing?

                              //NO, you throttle up just slightly until you are at the pressure you want. You have to do that for a one line fire.

                              And end up over puming the lower EP lines

                              //You'll have to do the best you can.

                              So you answered your own question. You wild *** guess it eh?

                              ///Multiple lines at different pressures are difficult to manage, but it is defiantly possible.

                              Yeah use RPM not psi to preset the flows and or use restriction plates. Or even automatic tips.

                              //So what would you do in that scenario?

                              Pump 220 psi, everything on the rig is preset with restriction plates so each line would get the ideal flow at the upper EP. Or go to the old stand by of preset RPMs.

                              //I also question your selection of lines and nozzles.

                              SO if you carry them you wouldn't use them?

                              //Both scenarios lead to a lot of standing around flowing water, any experienced engineer should be able to handle it.

                              So an engineer can only do this properly operation on an exterior fire attack?

                              ///In reference to the relief valve. What would you do not use it so when the 325 GPM vindicator shuts down you send the other lines flying?

                              I'd own a governor or stay away from any line not requiring 100 psi or more to pump. Plus preset the intake reliefs at hydrant pressure on every call.

                              //Ours both Hale and Waterous will work just fine under those conditions, and I suspect Champion (Darley) will do the same.

                              They don't relieve pressure under 100 psi, all three have a 30 psi up and down variance in pressures. Just the facts. It is even the NFPA std.

                              //the final exam involves gating and feathering a multiple line scenario.

                              Too bad it isn't realistic.

                              //I'm confident that I've probably pumped more long leadouts than you have.

                              Wow, quite a statement. Reading from your posting above you seem to have lots of questions and a lousy solution. Certainly pumping a wyed line makes your relief valve useless. A wye will always transfer the load to the other line unless yo use a relay relief on the wye.

                              // only 400 calls a year, I personally run more than that just on my shift.

                              Gee is that the only place I've ever worked?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                "use RPM not psi to preset the flows and or use restriction plates"

                                RPM's and restriction plates? Are you driving for NASCAR now. Over time the RPM's required to pump certain pressures change (they go up). As a pump and engine get older more engine speed is required to do what you could do when the engine was new. As for restriction plates, you are greatly limiting your capabilities with it in place. What do you do when you have to add hose to a line?

                                "Pump 220 psi, everything on the rig is preset with restriction plates so each line would get the ideal flow at the upper EP. Or go to the old stand by of preset RPMs."

                                Please tell me what text or class I can hear about using engine RPM's and restriction plates instead of Pressure gauges and flow meters.

                                "SO if you carry them you wouldn't use them?" We don't carry the smaller tips. If you pull a big line you had better be ready to flow a lot of water. Don't restrict yourself to only half of a lines possible flow.

                                "So an engineer can only do this properly operation on an exterior fire attack?"

                                Of course not, but the line selection and flows wouldn't be needed inside of a residence. Sure in a large commercial or industrial building you could have a similar setup. But the crews had better report that the fire is darkening down or it's time to get out. If you need more than 900 GPM to control a fire from the inside I would start to worry about the stability of the structure. It would all depend on the building and its contents but 900 GPM is a lot of water for an interior attack.

                                "stay away from any line not requiring 100 psi or more to pump."

                                So you want us to stay away from TFT? Most of their automatics require 100 PSI at the tip.

                                "They don't relieve pressure under 100 psi, all three have a 30 psi up and down variance in pressures. Just the facts."

                                Sorry that isn't accurate. When showing new engineers how the relief valve works we frequently use small lines with low pressure just to show them how the system operates. Must just be luck that the relief valves on all eight engines that I can be assigned to will operate at pressures under 100 psi. I have to admit the Hale relief valves have some slop in them compared with the waterous ones but both will work well with less than a 30 psi error. I guess you don't know how to properly set them.

                                "Too bad it isn't realistic"

                                While these operations are the exceptions and not the rules, when an engineer can master gating and feathering he can handle the simpler day to day operations.

                                "Certainly pumping a wyed line makes your relief valve useless. A wye will always transfer the load to the other line unless yo use a relay relief on the wye."

                                It would appear that you are unfamiliar with a relief valve's operation. If I am flowing two 1.75" lines off of a wye, lets say at 180 gpm apiece, with the relief valve set. When line "A" shuts down line "B" doesn't get the other pressure or flow. The relief valve will open sending the excess pressure back to the supply side of the pump. In other words We have two 15/16th SB attached to a wye by 150' 1.75" hose (per line) between the wye and the pumper is 400' 3". our PDP is 150 psi. ( 50 for nozzle, 49 for 1.75", 10 for wye, and 44 for 3" 153 rounded down for handlines) If the relief valve is set at 150 and one of the lines shuts down the pressure will not go over 150. The excess pressure is dumped to the intake side of the pump.

                                "Gee is that the only place I've ever worked?"

                                Gee, I don't know is it? One thing I do know is that you were NOT an engineer there.


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