The Vindicator , I saw it and it works

[LHS*]

//why not simplify nozzle operations and go to the size smoothbore tip that flows the amount of cafs you want?

Your question above would be laughable if not ridiculous. Everyone knows, by having a selection of tips, you can dry out the foam or make it wet. You can control water flow as well.

//If on your 1 3/4" or 2" lines you ALWAYS use cafs,

Gee, did I ever say we used 1 3/4" hose?


[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-28-2001).]

[FyredUp]

Larry,

Okay I said 1 3/4", not you.

By changing smoothbore tips you can change the character of the foam, that still doesn't explain carrying the fog tip. You are the one who has stated you always use cafs. Why the fog tip then? Surely you don't pump cafs through the fog tip.

By the way Larry which fire department are you currently a member of?

FyredUp

[LHS*]

//that still doesn't explain carrying the fog tip.

Gee I doubt approaching a LP fire with a smooth bore of CAF would work, WOULD IT??? Any other stupid questions?

// You are the one who has stated you always use cafs.

Ok sport put up the ALWAYS evidence, there are at least 100 photos on the web page and lots of text to the contrary on this board. We never use piecing nozzles, cellar nozzles, ladderpipes, master stream fog tips? ALWAYS HUH???????

//Surely you don't pump cafs through the fog tip.

We sure have quite effectively! Once again you obviously don't know squat about CAFS do you? Anything else you don't know about you want to try to speak intelligently about?

[FyredUp]

Larry,

Okay, now we have gone from interior structure attack to fighting LP-Gas fires. Isn't it you that wants to compare apples to apples? I thought we were discussing nozzle useage on class A materials inside a structure. But if you want to change the focus of this okay.

As far as piercing nozzles, cellar nozzles, ladder pipes and whatever else...again I thought we were disussing handline nozzles that are normally associated with interior attack. I know Larry, piercing nozzles and cellar nozzles are used inside structures. But they are specialty nozzles.

I never claimed to be an expert on cafs. The mention of the fog tip came from tests that were done by a neighboring career FD. They found that the cafs stream was severely degraded by using anything other than a smoothbore tip. So much so that they went to break-a-part nozzles for just that reason. Combo tips for water attack and then the slug tip for cafs. So if that is wrong, I apologize for only believing what I have experienced so far.

While I have not claimed to be an expert on cafs I have also not attacked it as voodoo science. I believe it can work under the right circumstances. Cost however is prohibitive for smaller departments.

On the other hand, you continue to come out time and time again against the Vindicator. And then try to cover it with your feeble statement "All nozzles are fighting fire somewhere". Is there some personal gain for you in constantly harping on this topic?

By the way....nice avoidance of my direct question on the last post.

Take care Larry. Sit back and relax, you take this all way to seriously.

FyredUp

[LHS*]

//Okay, now we have gone from interior structure attack to fighting LP-Gas fires.

Gee we don't have inside and outide attack lines or nozzles, we have a do everything nozzle. No chance for a flammable gas fire in a house? Gosh I made one a couple months back where the natural gas was burning inside. The helicopter that hit the house also had compressed gases supporting combustion. I guess I like flexability.

//Isn't it you that wants to compare apples to apples?

Let's try it again one nozzle all fires, get it?

//I thought we were discussing nozzle useage on class A materials inside a structure.

Let's say it another way, one nozzle is used on all fires...we don't have Class B only or Class A only attack lines or nozzles. We don't have inside and outside only tips.

// But if you want to change the focus of this okay.

Can you say univeral nozzle? One nozzle all fires.

//As far as piercing nozzles, cellar nozzles, ladder pipes and whatever else...again I thought we were disussing handline nozzles that are normally associated with interior attack.

We use piercing nozzles inside, cellar nozzles inside, master stream tips inside. Get it? All the tools in the tool box can be used wherever needed.

//piercing nozzles and cellar nozzles are used inside structures. But they are specialty nozzles.

I'm sure our nozzles are considered specialty nozzles too.

//I never claimed to be an expert on cafs.

You've sure made that obvious.

//The mention of the fog tip came from tests that were done by a neighboring career FD.

So what? Lots of flawed tests are done everyday.

//They found that the cafs stream was severely degraded by using anything other than a smoothbore tip.

Obviously, they don't know what they are doing, either. The fire stream looked good Friday through a Fog tip and I doubt anyone could tell the difference between it and a combo tip in a strutural firefighting environment when properly configured. I think we used 105 gallons of concentrate that is what, 35,000 gallons of water treated. Of course we were playing in a 100% quint equipped CAF fleet.

//So much so that they went to break-a-part nozzles for just that reason.

That is nice, limit your options, I don't think I'll do that. I hope they don't get themselves killed.

//Combo tips for water attack and then the slug tip for cafs.

Gee, that is what we can do with one nozzle. Maybe we should change what we are doing. One klind of CAF for all fires huh? Yeah sounds like someone who doesn't have a clue.

//So if that is wrong, I apologize for only believing what I have experienced so far.

Oh.

/// I believe it can work under the right circumstances.

What pray tell would those be with all your experience in the topic?

// Cost however is prohibitive for smaller departments.

Gee, how much smaller can you get than Fallon or Rattlesnake?

//On the other hand, you continue to come out time and time again against the Vindicator.

Want to post some support for that statement?

// And then try to cover it with your feeble statement "All nozzles are fighting fire somewhere".

They are! Why is that feeble? Fires are going out everywhere at almost every flow. Changing nozzles is hardly needed. All the nozzles on the market pretty much do what they are supposed to do. Why isn't there a national standard on gpm flow and NP you must use to attack a fire? Because this topic is full of opinion, not fact.

// Is there some personal gain for you in constantly harping on this topic?

You tell me? You got some personal gain harping to me? I don't take a dime from any manufacturer nor have I in the last 16 years. Is there something wrong saying Houston uses them on 70 trucks when a majority of them are in compartments and other tips out number them 5 or 6 to 1? Just the truth. Is there something wrong with saying the nozzle will flow X amount of water when you pick the discharge that is not used as a preconnect discharge and don't use the hose that the FD will use in day to day firefighting? So I state there is a huge difference in flows. Something wrong with that? Something wrong with reporting that lots of 1 3/4" hose is really 2", 2 1/8" or 2 1/4"...of course the nozzle will flow more. Anything wrong with pointing that out. Anything wrong with pointing out a 50 psi hole will have less reaction than the same hole at 100 psi? That two 50 psi tips, fog and SB will flow the same thing? Too many smoke and mirrors for me. So, I share a few I see used daily. I don't think I can force anyone to do aything, just pointing out obervations. When I asked Paul if he compared anythng side by side he never anseredthe question, pretty popular on these boards.

Now if you are saying I have something to gain come out with some facts to support your claim or shut your mouth. Unlike you I don't post names on ths board, so be careful what you preach using my name.

As far as the unaswered question it was fully answered on this board. Go read it. I will stay on topic and choose not to answer off topic questions. But for whatever it is worth why do you care what fd I am with or not with? What difference does it make? Do you think a bunch has changed? Are fires different today that 3 years ago? What is your point?????????

And how about your unanswered question??? The ALWAYS CAF CRAP you say I said...can't find any proof to support another claim or attack???

[KEA]

LHS:
/I will stay on topic and choose not to answer off topic questions. /

I guess this is what you did on the Class A Foam thread huh Larry? You answered my question then went on to change the topic entirely in what I would call another futile attack of our product and our integrity.

Your assumptions being posted about peoples opinions of our product are just that, your assumptions. Why dont you get on the phone and call Lewisville, TX FD and ask them about their confidence of our product, or why they still have a combo tip along with ours. You might be surprised to find that we do not get invoved in what you call Smoke and Mirrors sales tacticts. We dont need to, never have, and never will.

In fact, Paulie was there for that training. I suppose we pulled one over on him to huh Larry?

Is it possible to take the advice from one who considers you a friend? I think he said: "Larry. Take the first step"


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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited 05-01-2001).]

[LHS*]

//another futile attack of our product and our integrity.

Just pointed out some facts. If you've got integrity problems don't drag me into it. One nozzles worth of truct, that is real cofidence?

Gee, I saw one of your nozzles on an attack line today, I guess they weren't fully sold, they used other nozzles on all the other lines. Hmmm, something wrong with that thing?? Seems to be a confidence issue, the FD had the $800,000 I got tyhem to spend and couldn't or wouldn't buy enought of your tips to do all the lines. Why is that? Very strange, almost every department equips their rigs with one standard preconnect nozzle on their lines, I guess yours is special. Gosh, everytime they go to the crosslay they have to decide do I dare or don't I. What gives, can't it do the entire job?

The funny thing even the guys sold on your tip don't put it on more than one line at their paid job. One nozzle at a time is a hard way to make an impact.

If they are sold on the small nozzle, why not the bigger one and the deck gun tip? It has got to be a trust issue or limited ability, don't you think? The American fire service votes with their pocket books, they aren't buying many of your gig are they? The fire service is full of one of a kind stuff we bought just one of. Not much af a legacy to build.

//are just that, your assumptions.

That is probably all anyone can give, isn't it?

// Why dont you get on the phone and call Lewisville, TX FD and ask them about their confidence of our product, or why they still have a combo tip along with ours.

Gee, only one little firee department for a source??? LOL

//We dont need to, never have, and never
will.

That is nice, never said you did.

//I suppose we pulled one over on him to huh

Never said you did, did you?

You've got quite a guilt complex.


[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-01-2001).]

[KEA]

LHS: Thank you Larry May I please have another?

/Gee, only one little firee department for a source??? LOL/

First, luck has nothing to do with it! Second, I believe that a small one engine VOL fire department is just as important as a large municipal department.

Is your implication that the smaller departments input is of no value? Hum....how big is Fallon, or Rattlesnake. I recall you mentioned they are not very big but it sure seams you put a lot of stock in what they do.




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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS*]

My views pretty much follow these posted on Akron's web page:

The nozzle is an important part of the firefighting system. The selection of the nozzle to be used by the department should depend upon the tactics and performance required. You should decide what you want your nozzle to do before making your decision.

What Nozzles Do
Nozzles are designed to help put out fires by getting the right amount of water, in the right form, in the right place.

Nozzles have three main functions:

Control Flow
The size of the orifice in the outlet of the nozzle controls the flow.

Provide Reach
The nozzle creates a restriction at the end of the waterway which changes water pressure to velocity. Velocity provides the reach which is necessary to get the water to where it is needed.

Create Shape
Different situations require different methods of applying water or foam. Some situations require the reach and penetration of a straight stream, while others require the heat adsorption capability or radiant heat protection of a wide angle fog spray.

Nozzle Options
There are four basic nozzle types: 1) the solid bore; 2) the single gallonage (sometimes called variable pressure/variable flow); 3) the adjustable gallonage and; 4) the automatic or constant pressure. Of the four, the latter three make up a group of nozzles commonly called combination nozzles because they produce both a straight and a fog stream.

Solid Bore Nozzle
The solid or smooth bore nozzle is the most basic of the four nozzle types, both in design and function. Its purpose is to produce a solid stream, which provides maximum reach and penetration.

Single (Fixed, or Variable Pressure/ Variable Flow) Gallonage Nozzle
The single gallonage nozzle, the simplest form of the combination or fog nozzle, provides flow at a predetermined rate that cannot be altered significantly while in use. However, when the nozzle pressure is varied the flow varies. Some of today's single gallonage nozzles can provide quality patterns even at reduced nozzle pressures.

Adjustable Gallonage Nozzle
Todays adjustable gallonage nozzles allow the nozzle operator to manually select a desired gallonage without shutting down. Like the single gallonage nozzle, some of todayÕs adjustable gallonage nozzles can provide quality patterns even at reduced nozzle pressures.

Automatic (Constant Pressure) Nozzle
An automatic nozzle is designed to maintain a relatively constant pressure over a wide range of flows. This is accomplished by a mechanism in the nozzle that automatically adjusts to an increase or decrease in flow to maintain pressure, and thus reach, fairly consistent.

Selecting a Nozzle
When selecting a nozzle it is important to choose the type that is best suited for your applications. The following guidelines will help you determine which type and size of nozzle is best for you.

1. What flow range is required?
A nozzle cannot create flow. The available water, pump capacity, hose lays, etc., determine what a nozzle can achieve. The system needs to be analyzed to determine what flow range can be achieved.

Determine the maximum flow rate that can be achieved with normal engine pressures and hose lays.

Determine the minimum flow that will be required.

Consider whether the nozzle will always be used on the same hose or whether it will be used in other applications which might require different flows.

2. How much flow can be controlled by the available manpower?
Reaction force is determined by the GPM flow, nozzle pressure and pattern. First determine the maximum flow that can be controlled by the available manpower.

3. Are different patterns required?
Decide whether a solid bore nozzle or fog/straight stream nozzle is required. Quality fog nozzles produce almost as good a straight stream as a solid bore nozzle but do require a higher inlet pressure. The reach of a quality fog nozzle at 100 psi is about the same as that of a solid bore nozzle at 80 psi.

If the lower pressure performance of a solid bore nozzle combined with the patterns of a fog/straight stream nozzle would accommodate your needs best, consider a break apart fog nozzle with the compact solid bore tip.

Fog nozzles are designed to provide a dispersed stream to protect personnel. Teeth are provided to break up the water into smaller droplets for better heat absorption and steam effect. Spinning teeth provide excellent breakup of water for heat absorption and steam conversion, due to the elimination of fingering, which is especially important in LPG type fires.

4. Who should control the flow - the nozzle operator or the pump operator?
Determine whether it is necessary to change the flow rate while operating. If so, decide whether the nozzle operator or the pump operator should control the flow rate. If the nozzle operator should control the flow rate, an adjustable gallonage nozzle could be the best choice. If the pump operator is to control the flow rate, a single gallonage (fixed, or variable pressure/variable flow) or an automatic nozzle would probably be the best.

5. How durable should the nozzle be?
Nozzles are designed to withstand reasonably tough service, but some nozzles will withstand more abuse than others. If durability is crucial and maintenance and repair opportunities are limited, a less complex nozzle design might be the best choice because the simplest nozzles are usually the toughest.

6. What is the level of training?
Departments provide various amounts of training for the pump operator and the nozzle operator. The nozzle should complement the training.

Solid bore nozzles require the least amount of training for the pump operator and the nozzle operator. The engine pressure depends mainly on the length and size of hose.

Single gallonage or variable pressure/variable flow nozzles require somewhat more training than the solid bore nozzle.

Adjustable gallonage fog nozzles require additional training of the pump operator and the nozzle operator because different engine pressures will be required for each of the flow settings with different lengths and sizes of hose.

Automatic/constant pressure fog nozzles also require additional training of the pump operator and the nozzle operator. The pump operator must be trained to accurately control the engine pressure and flow with different lengths and sizes of hoses and different operating conditions.

After analyzing a departments needs and considering the strengths and purposes of each nozzle, decision makers will be better prepared to choose how to spend their limited resources on the right combination of nozzles.

[ADSN/WFLD]

Wow Larry, thanks for the lesson on nozzles, now I'm more convinced than ever that my department made the right choice in purchasing the Vindicator.
If you would only take your criteria to a class put on by Kirk or another one of his associates you would see what a value the Vindicator is. The nozzle flows more water at a lower reaction force than anything out there. Higher flow means a quicker knockdown and less overall damage, (both fire and water).

"I made one a couple months back where the natural gas was burning inside." Where was this job? You told us that you haven't been a firefighter for the last few years.
Not to turn this into a tactics debate but are you advocating extinguishing a gas fire without shutting off the flow?

"1. What flow range is required?" Whatever flow you are looking for their is a Vindicator that can achieve it.
"2. How much flow can be controlled by the available manpower?" With its low nozzle reaction the vindicator even beats smoothbore nozzles.
"3. Are different patterns required?" If you are using smoothbores you can't change the pattern, if I need a fog I have one on the rig. No one ever said the Vindicator was appropriate in EVERY situation.
"4. Who should control the flow - the nozzle operator or the pump operator?" In a multiple line operation I'll pick the Pump operator. Selectable gallonage nozzles and TFT shutoffs can be a nightmare for the engineer and crews on other lines.
"5. How durable should the nozzle be?" With few moving parts the vindicator is durable and easy to maintain or repair.
"6. What is the level of training?" With the class presented by first strike you will learn more about nozzles than any other class that you have had.
Looking forward to your comments.

[LHS*]

//If you would only take your criteria to a class put on by Kirk or another one of his associates you would see what a value the Vindicator is.

Why do I need to do that, I’ve helped departments buy Vindicators/

//The nozzle flows more water at a lower reaction force than anything out there.

That is simply untrue.

// Higher flow means a quicker knockdown and less overall damage, (both fire and water).

Not always.

//"I made one a couple months back where the natural gas was burning inside." Where was this job?

Houston Texas

//You told us that you haven't been a firefighter for the last few years.

So?

//Not to turn this into a tactics debate but are you advocating extinguishing a gas fire without shutting off the flow?

Gee did I say that somewhere? I think the FOG nozzle is used to approach the burning gas so you can shut off the flow, but heck I’m not a firefighter how would I knoW…I’d figure you’d know that but obviously not.

//"1. What flow range is required?" Whatever flow you are looking for their is a Vindicator that can achieve it.

I’ll be working with a 14,000 gpm monitor Saturday, I bet you don’t do that or the 4’s and 6K jobs either.

"// How much flow can be controlled by the available manpower?" With its low nozzle reaction the vindicator even beats smoothbore nozzles.

Not always

///Are different patterns required?" If you are using smoothbores you can't change the pattern, if I need a fog I have one on the rig. No one ever said the Vindicator was appropriate in EVERY situation.

Gee ours is,

//"4. Who should control the flow - the nozzle operator or the pump operator?"

The firefighter

// In a multiple line operation I'll pick the Pump operator.

You never answer a direct question but I’ll be stupid enough to ask you one. How does a pump operator control a multiple line operation? Here I’ll give you the lines. A 150 foot 2 ½” with a 1” SB, a 250 foot 1 ¾” flowing 220 gpm with a fog tip, a 150 foot 1 ¾” with a SB 15/16” and a 300 foot 2 ½” with a Vindicator at 300, first line in operation at 1 min, 2nd at 4 min 3rd at 6 min and 4th at 10 minutes.

//Selectable gallonage nozzles and TFT shutoffs can be a nightmare for the engineer and crews on other lines.

Really, explain why?

//"5. How durable should the nozzle be?" With few moving parts the vindicator is durable and easy to maintain or repair.

Wouldn’t none be better?

///"6. What is the level of training?" With the class presented by first strike you will learn more about nozzles than any other class that you have

Not likely

[KEA]

LHS:
/I’ve helped departments buy Vindicators/

Please name the department which you helped buy Vindicators.

As far as big flow, we have built and flowed over 6,000 gpm through a Vindicator nozzle. Bigger flows are no problem.


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[15hoseman]

I guess what we really need is some sort of cut off with two threaded "handles" on it, so we have yet another thought process to go through when we make a fire attack. Do I go in with the tip already attatched, or is this one of those "special" fires where I need to switch tips. Lucky me, they're already the handle on my pipe! Just hold on while i'm fumbling with taking one off and putting the other on... (don't worry ma'am, I'm sure your trapped child will be fine)

[LHS*]

Stafford work, Houston, tc.

[KEA]

LHS:
What role did you have in either department buying Vindicators?

I personally did the demonstrations and training of both those departments and at no time did your name come up in relation to our product, ever!

Stafford bought nozzles because because of Captain Cliff Read and Captain Calvin Mendall doing live fire training with the nozzles. As far as Houston goes, oh do tell what role you had in that.

Save us the dialog if your going to tell us that your assistance was based on finding money for the department. That would hardly constitute helping a department buy a specific product.

Station2 (Larry) could you please set the record straight as to what role LHS played with your department buying nozzles.

Thanks

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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited 05-02-2001).]