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  • #16
    Greetings:
    If the nozzle can flow a greater GPM with the same diameter attack line (1 3/4 or 2)as being demonstrated with reduced NP, then correct me if I'm wrong, but can the diameter of the line can be reduced with the Vin.
    Isn't our objective to 1. place a line in service as rapidly as possible with 2. the least amount of personnel on the greatest majority of fires which are room and contents (90%). This can be accomplished with nozzle flows of less than 150 GPM. It would seem to me than this could pave the way for MAYBE 1 1/4, 1 3/8, and the old standard 1 1/2.
    The question then becomes one of reduced nozzle reaction albiet with increased FL (b/c of the smaller diameter attack line). Does this mean the EP has to increase proportionately or can the same efficiencies be achieved with a two stage pump? After years of "dumbing down the pump operator" with single stage pumps, were purchasing two stage again. The increased efficiencies are dramatic in terms of decreased work the pump is doing. Maybe someone can clear this up? Thanks ... FTM-STB

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    • #17
      Larry: You wrote an article on the Fallon Tip in your June-July 1995 issue of Firefighter news. In that article you said: "Once the emotional issues are put aside and facts replace fallacy and tradition, the nozzle choice becomes clear". So, if its so clear why isn’t everyone using it? Want to bet any money that more departments use Vindicators than the Fallon Tip?You also stated in the same article: "The real issue is what works for you!" Why are you so against the Vindicator, which many departments have determined works for them? You go on to state: "In order to incorporate the latest in compressed air foam firefighting technology, smoothbore tips would need to be incorporated into the department." Just curious, why would you use a Fog nozzle to hit a car fire with a deck gun using compressed air foam (Fallon web-page photo)when in your article you reference using CAFS with smoothbores? In closing for that article you state: "By providing the firefighter with one special standardized nozzle and a full selection of tips and flows, depending on the fire situation, backed up with foam if needed, it is believed any situation can be addressed with the "Fallon Tip". Lets not forget that in your article you talk about a clip on foam tip so I guess its not really "One" special nozzle! Lets not stop their. What's the cost of the Fallon tip, what's the cost of the Clip on Foam attachment? Since your so concerned about the department's money why spend more and get less? Lets see…..The Vindicator Heavy Attack operates from 25-125-psi which offer flows we know puts out fires, has a constant automatic flush that far exceeds any NFPA guideline so working from static water sources has never been a problem, works extremely well with foam from 175gpm clear up to over 400gpm, no attachments needed for foam, works with CAFS, gets up to 13.9:1 expansion with AFFF(Only possible with an attachment on the Fallon Tip), can be gated for less flow during overhaul etc, etc, etc….Sounds like every item you outlined in this article is covered pretty darn good by the Vindicator and I would venture to say, although not sure, the Vindicator costs less than the Fallon Tip and it has a Ten year warranty.December 1994 issue of the same magazine. This one I love! You stated: "It is flow, not the hose size that matters". Practice what you preach Larry. Why does the hose size matter only when it’s the Vindicator on the end?
      April-May issue of the same magazine, which you were the Chief Editor, Paul Shapiro states: "The bottom line being that the more water applied to the fire the faster it can be extinguished. Double the application rate and the fire knocks down twice as fast. Triple the rate and then the speed of knockdown is tripled". Just curious why you would allow such a statement to be printed if your so concerned about water damage. Lets face it Larry, your problem isn’t about the nozzles performance. Your own writings from the past make that clear because the nozzle does everything you talk about a nozzle doing. Maybe its just the fact that it wasn’t your idea? Who know and who cares! It seam pretty clear to me the nozzle works, even Paul has confirmed that. It has its place and the more you rant and rave about it the more convincing it is that its hear to stay.Last question for you Larry: Why was it OK for Paul to talk about flows of 400-gpm on an attack line in the June-July 1995 issue of Firefighter News but once he talks of less flow with a Vindicator you jump up and start raising concern over that type of flow? Again, the emotion is getting in the way. I would recommend you practice what you preached to Fallon FD. Put you emotional issues aside and let facts replace fallacy and tradition! In case you forgot, those were your words not mine.

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      • #18
        ADSN/WFLD

        Do you really expect me to answer your questions when you make no effort to answer mine? Dream on, fair is fair.

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        • #19
          Larry. Take the first step

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          • #20
            OK, all nozzles are fighting fire some place.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LHS*:
              ADSN/WFLD

              Do you really expect me to answer your questions when you make no effort to answer mine? Dream on, fair is fair.
              LOL. Why do I have the image of a 10 year old sitting pouting in a corner, or of Bugs and Daffey; "Duck Season!" "Rabbit Season!". ROFL!!!

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              • #22
                Big Paulie,
                Are you teaching the "large caliber streams" class at Baltimore in July for Firehouse and is this how you will flow 350 gpm through a 1 3/4 hose? I am taking that class and can't wait to see your techniques and "tricks of the trade."

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                • #23
                  If any of you are around Indianapolis, In. this weekend (April 21 & 22) Big Paulie will be teaching "Laying the Big Line". Classes start at 08:30 at Ben Davis High School on the west side of Indy.
                  Should be a really good class. I'm planning on attending.

                  ------------------
                  Asst Chief Jim Kron

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LHS*:
                    OK, all nozzles are fighting fire some place.
                    Larry, I have heard you say the above many times. But I can't help but wonder if the corollary to this is "But if it isn't Larry's idea it is fighting fire right."

                    That is the only reason I can figure for your in the face attitude about nozzles.

                    I am also curious...How many places besides Fallon ever adopted the Fallon nozzle? And...in fact do they still use it? If cafs is used on everything there...why not simplify and just use a single size smoothbore?

                    For the record....I have never told anyone to do what my FD does for hose or nozzles. What I have done is answer people's questions when they ask. I tell them it works for us. Then I tell them the biggest thing is to find out exactly what they want to do and then find the equipment to do it.

                    FyredUp

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      SCheatham, I will get the 350 plus gpm flows with at least two types of nozzles. The Vindicator is one of them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I had the opportunity to attend one of Big Paulie's classes this past weekend, at the Indiana State Fire School.
                        The only thing that I can say is that after 40 years in the fire service, I still learned a lot about moving water, really big water.
                        I will be having drills with my crew to pass this new information along.
                        To make a long story short - If Big Paulie comes to your area - his class should not be missed.

                        ------------------
                        Asst Chief Jim Kron

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          //I am also curious...How many places besides Fallon ever adopted the Fallon nozzle?

                          Oh, about 50 I'm told, from Sun Valley Idaho to Annaville Texas to Rattlesnake CO, those three alone represent 250 nozzles.

                          //And...in fact do they still use it?

                          Uh huh.

                          //If cafs is used on everything there...why not simplify and just use a single size smoothbore?

                          Gee, same nozzle tip for a 2" lines as a 1" as a deck gun, I don't think so.

                          //For the record....I have never told anyone to do what my FD does for hose or nozzles.

                          Gee, there are so few choices I'm sure they could end up with what you do on there own.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Does anyone have an opinion Why the subject matter of the Vindicator Nozzle has arguably been the most controversial piece of fire fighting equipment on the forums?

                            ------------------
                            Bob Compton

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have to assume because the big players in the market know it works and see it as a threat to their market share. If you don't think the almighty dollar has anything to do with this you need to re-think. Any time new technology threatens old established technology/companies there's going to be a fight. If the nozzle performs as advertised, and I believe it does, this nozzle will spread quickly and the people who have been the most vocal adversaries will end up looking pretty bad and lose whatever credibility they have.
                              Just one mans opinion.
                              Stay safe

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Larry,

                                Originally posted by LHS*:

                                //If cafs is used on everything there...why not simplify and just use a single size smoothbore?

                                Gee, same nozzle tip for a 2" lines as a 1" as a deck gun, I don't think so.

                                [/B]
                                Your answer to the above would be laughable if it wasn't so ridiculous. By your answer the assumption can be made that you use the fallon nozzle on 1 inch lines and on your deck guns. I know that is wrong and so do you. So quit playing your little mind game and answer the question. If on your 1 3/4" or 2" lines you ALWAYS use cafs, why not simplify nozzle operations and go to the size smoothbore tip that flows the amount of cafs you want?

                                I await you usual non-answer to a direct question.

                                FyredUp

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