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  • #91

    For all that have not read the story on this, here is the link: http://199.244.139.109/dcwww?-show:c...03_001_001.dcs
    As you will see PG was sued on this issue once before and the county agreed not to discriminate…

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    • #92
      Thanks for shedding a little more light on the issue kvfd.

      Comment


      • #93
        a) If you belive PG County is the only real world of firefighting out there

        Never said it. Never believed it. Been a firefighter in two states and inspected FD's in 3 states, 2 territories, and 5 foreign countries. Lotsa real world. Nothing I need to prove to you.

        b) if you really believe that the positive opinions and positive facts posted here do not come from real world experience and that we couldn't possibly know about the bagillion different ways to get hurt at a fire or that those of us that believe you should at least give this guy a shot to show you what he can do are at best crusaders, even though none of has ever advocated letting the guy go in

        make a sentence out of this with a question mark on the end, and maybe an educated person would be able to answer.

        I bet you voted for gore or nader didn't you?

        Yeah, and I'm gonna drive around TX with that bumper sticker that says "I voted for Gore, I'm gay, and I want to take away your guns"

        It's people like you Mongo that can be wound up so easily that makes a life in the fire service (between fires) truly enjoyable. Thanks for reinforcing that.



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        • #94
          Ursula: If you were ever in a real jam, you would not care..........

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          • #95
            KVFD: thanks

            What happened to Woody?

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            • #96
              The MANY problems with letting him on as a Firefighter:

              1) He already is allowed to ride on the apparatus.

              2) He already is allowed to help around the fire station.

              3) He wants to be an INTERIOR ATTACK firefighter.

              4) What happens when he is riding as an exterior firefighter and steps out to layout, and because he cannot hear an oncoming car or fire engine get hit and KILLED by them?

              5) What if during a fire he cannot hear the evacuation tones and gets KILLED?

              6) What happens when he is riding on the Rescue Squad they have at that station and get KILLED on Route 50 on a wreck?

              7) Why should we reduce the effectiveness of our limited personnel by having someone babysitting him?

              8) Once this is allowed, a disabled person in a wheelchair will require us to bring him/her on as a firefighter and we will have to retrofit the engine with a wheelchair lift.

              And probably the most important item...
              9) When this person is disiplined for messing up as ALL rookies do, he will scream discrimiation and sue.

              I am sure that there are other motives than wanting to be a firefighter as well, such as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ chaching!!


              Comment


              • #97
                a) If you belive PG County is the only real world of firefighting out there

                Never said it. Never believed it.


                Then you're not an idiot in regards to that statement.

                make a sentence out of this with a question mark on the end, and maybe an educated person would be able to answer.

                No ? needed, it's a direct if/then statement just like the previous one you understood. If you believe that, then you are an idiot. To be fair to the educated among us, it could use a little more puncuation. But as over-educated as some of us may be I'm certain we know how to answer it.

                Yeah, and I'm gonna drive around TX with that bumper sticker that says "I voted for Gore, I'm gay, and I want to take away your guns"

                I don't care if you're gay, but you ain't gettin' my guns. FYI, those bumper stickers have rainbows on them that may clash with the paint on your pinto .

                It's people like you Mongo that can be wound up so easily that makes a life in the fire service (between fires) truly enjoyable.

                I'm not wound up in the least.

                But I do enjoy seeing people on the ropes that have absolutely no hard evidence to support their weak arguements try to keep them afloat just save a little face and pride.

                And its people that hold on to weak archaic positions and traditions that directly contradict the facts that are the true joy to be around.

                "Well you see son it's like this...."

                "OK, show me"

                "I ain't gotta show you, that's just that way it is and everybody living in the real world knows it."

                But when they see something work in practice that disrupts their long held beliefs, they wonder if it will work in theory.

                Thanks for reinforcing that.

                No no, thank you. As educated as you may be, one of these days you might figure out you're being screwed with just to see how far you're willing to go. That being said, I'm not abandoning my position that, when job positions will allow for a certain amount of disability, you should at least let a person demonstrate to you how capable he/she is, before you make a decision on his/her capabilities.

                Let's get back to the original deal...

                You asked us Calling it a violation against the Americans with Disabilities Act, a deaf Maryland man is suing Prince George's County for turning down his bid to become a volunteer firefighter. What do you folks think?

                I think you loose, said it from the very beginning. Now, apparently you have twice before. Thanks again kvfdlife for having the eggs to post the article, not very positive for PGC. I've said all along that we aren't getting the whole story and even with the article shedding more light, we're still not.

                So, Grit, did you know that PGC had been sued twice before on this same issue and lost?

                Did you know that there were (maybe still are) two deaf firefighters in the PG system?

                Do you know how they worked out or how they're doing?

                Can anyone from PGC answer these?

                Now I wonder even more that why out of all the PGC folks that post on these boards firehouse forums only four, maybe as many as seven if you count the unknowns, have come out against this guy.

                Did the rest:

                a) learn that working with a deaf guy wasn't as bad as we think

                b) decide not to say anything in light of the impending legal action

                c) just not want to participate in this discussion

                Grit, you're probably a hell of a man doing a hell of a job and next time I'm up PG way, I'd like to stop by and say hey - I'll even help you flog the rookies and the we can go and make them buy us a beer if you want. "You know rook, when a firefighter comes from Texas to visit, the lowest rookie on the pole buys the budweiser."

                It's OK to disagree on things that have merits to both sides of the arguement. And just because folks do, doesn't mean one side or the other is not living and working in the real world.

                [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-20-2001).]

                Comment


                • #98
                  1) He already is allowed to ride on the apparatus.

                  If there is nothing that he can do on the fire ground as some of us have stated, why is he riding the apparatus?

                  What does he do on the fire ground?

                  4) What happens when he is riding as an exterior firefighter and steps out to layout, and because he cannot hear an oncoming car or fire engine get hit and KILLED by them?

                  He gets hit or killed for being stupid, just like any hearing firefghter that does the same thing. Doesn't PGC teach all firefighters to look both ways before getting off on the street side? Didn't their mothers teach them to look both ways before stepping into the street?

                  6) What happens when he is riding on the Rescue Squad they have at that station and get KILLED on Route 50 on a wreck?

                  He gets killed for being stupid, just like any hearing firefghter that does the same thing.

                  7) Why should we reduce the effectiveness of our limited personnel by having someone babysitting him?

                  I don't belive you should babysit him.

                  Can he hear with hearing aids?

                  8) Once this is allowed, a disabled person in a wheelchair will require us to bring him/her on as a firefighter and we will have to retrofit the engine with a wheelchair lift.

                  Wrong, that is a huge leap and a weak position to hold. You're a smart guy, try something different like a blind, one-legged guy that walks with a cain and a wooden leg but crawls like a SOB.

                  9) When this person is disiplined for messing up as ALL rookies do, he will scream discrimiation and sue.

                  But he won't win if you can demonstrate that ALL rookies are treated the same way and that any rookie that committed the same error has been or would have been disciplined in the same manner.

                  I am sure that there are other motives than wanting to be a firefighter as well, such as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ chaching!!

                  Yeah, we're all in this for the money. Oh and the pretty girls.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Mongo - there's alot I don't know. AND alot about this issue. That's why I cut & pasted the sentence used to start the topic, to motivate people to come up with more info as well as opinions. I'm surprised that (it appears) the word hasn't gotten to the guy involved to join us here. That's where we can get the most scoop..........

                    And you're welcome anytime. The Pinto line made me laugh out loud over here. Beers are in order, especially the recruit-financed type. More folks need to learn the have-it-out-then-have-a-beer method of disagreement resolution. We just taught our recruits another lesson, huh? They probably thought we were havin' a brawl..........

                    Comment


                    • Well, I would love to see a deaf man in the fire service. I would love to see him get out there and try his hardest to prove a lot of people wrong. I would love to see him become an excellent firefighter. But I wouldn't have the time nor the energy to train and protect him. Nor do I have the time to learn how to communicate with him at a fire scene. Is this being selfish? I don't think so. My cousin is deaf, so I do have an understanding. And if I couldn't find the time or energy to do all this, I certainly can't expect anyone else to either.

                      Now, as far as suing the govt - I think can be described as nothing short of a "weasel." If this man does make the dept, they should keep a very close eye on him.

                      ------------------
                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • Mongo....."here" is on the fireground. At the acadmey filling bottles or in the canteen unit isn't in here (the fire building).
                        And the "alternative motives" are the ADA banner waving that is going on.
                        Are the rest of us so mistaken and illinformed to not understand the demands of doing this job? There are jobs that could be done by the deaf, but not on the fireground (in my opinion).
                        Some motives of the law suits aren't as upstanding as we'd all like to think. I'm suspicious, when a case like this arises, of what actually is occurring.
                        I'm not a liberal or conservative so the extremist route won't work on me. The fact is that when the work needs to get done and a worker will lend complications to the work getting done efficiently, then there is problems. Deafness makes this worker very vunerable to injury and the team therefore will be significantly weakened.
                        Am I wrong, no, because it's my opinion. Maybe the facts the opinion is based upon are incorrect, but I see my argument as sufficient to satisfy my position.

                        Comment


                        • Are the rest of us so mistaken and illinformed to not understand the demands of doing this job?

                          When did I say that? Read back and you'll see that I'm one of those not working in the real world and do not understand the job demands.

                          Some motives of the law suits aren't as upstanding as we'd all like to think. I'm suspicious, when a case like this arises, of what actually is occurring.

                          I don't know this guys motives and I don't care what they are. The fact is he has a winnable case simply because somebody said no because he's deaf. As much as I disagree with the ADA, you still can't do that and you shouldn't have ever done it.

                          I'm not a liberal or conservative so the extremist route won't work on me.

                          So are you a moderate and feel strongly both ways?

                          Am I wrong, no, because it's my opinion.

                          You are entilted to your opinion but remember opinions that are in direct contradiction with the facts are wrong whether they're yours, mine, Grits or anyone elses. Truth is absolute, not relative to how we feel.

                          Maybe the facts the opinion is based upon are incorrect, but I see my argument as sufficient to satisfy my position.

                          OK

                          If you wanna keep a deaf guy off simply because he's deaf, more power to you. Make sure you've got good lawyers, a statement like RJE provided earlier, get rid of all the people on your department that have some form of disability and/or can't pull their own weight (or your weight if you should fall-out) or those that otherwise create a safety hazard and have at it. I'll fight to the end for you.

                          Comment


                          • This has been one of the most thought provoking threads I've seen in a long time, and after reading all the posts I still seem to have mixed feelings on the subject.

                            I have a child with a disability. He's aware of his limitations, because of the danger to himself and others. There are some things that it just isn't feasible for him to do, and fighting fires is one of them.

                            The article doesn't state if the firefighter in question was denied solely on the basis of his hearing, or if the board found other grounds to deny him. If it were done for no other reason than his disability, then I agree he should be given the opportunity to train and see if he can make the grade.

                            Another question that pops into my mind is what about insuring him? Will the county's insurance cover him in the event of an accident, and can he be insured under the circumstances?

                            I'm a firm believer that everyone should have the opportunity to live out their dream, but I'm also a believer that we all have limitations and we need to be aware of them.

                            Comment


                            • The ADA is law by morons for morons. Any law that protects alcoholics as "disabled", or requires bunker racks accessible to wheel chairs (like in our new station 3), is ludicrous. Anyone who sues to be hired as a firefighter when he is deaf is a selfish creature who places his "rights" ahead of his own safety and that of coworkers and customers. Capt. Dan

                              Comment


                              • Excellent forum here with a lot of views as to the acceptance or non-acceptance of a deaf firefighter. Personally I don't think that firefighting is the place for a totally deaf individual. As an instructor, I think I would have a difficult time communicating with a trainee that was deaf. There have been many times I've had to raise my voice to get a trainee to understand that they we're making mistakes while doing evolutions.

                                I, as an instructor can't expect this individual to be looking at me all the time while trying to get that individual to understand what I'm trying to teach them. No trainee can be looking at you all the time while training, I believe it causes distractions for them. The trainee would be jeopradizing his or herself during the training process. I personally would not want that responsibility on my shoulders.

                                As an interior firefighter, hearing is a neccessity that can't be denied. Think of all the sounds you have been trained and learned to listen for inside the fire building. Communication is a neccessity while fighting fires. If you can't hear that communication, the chances of you becoming a statistic are to high a price to pay.

                                I believe it would jeopradize the interior crews, as well as the deaf individual. I know sign language, but it would be a difficult process inside the building. Your sight is void or limited and your hands are usually busy. Just an opinion and I don't mean to destroy anyones hopes and dreams but we must be realistic.

                                Comment

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