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  • #16
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    I call that muscle memory conditioning...burn room firefighter. I have seen it where in an acquired structure training burn those burn room firefighters gave the fire a little shot and then shut the nozzle off. Meanwhile the fire blows over and through them. Without an alert back up line officer they would have gotten roasted.
    The "cure" for that is a crap load of pallets and straw and multiple setups. That way crews really get to knock down a fire and not have to worry about leaving something for the next guys. Of course that takes a lot of help.
    For training fires with my POC dept., we usually invite a another dept. or two. Usually we'll have seven teams or so, which rotate stations, a one of which helps supply the materials for the instructors. Our stations usually are;
    fire attack
    backup line
    RIT
    Outside vent
    Outside line (to keep fire out of the eaves)
    Rehab
    Pump ops and burn materials.

    We might have two rehab turns depending on how many people we have, and three per crew. Usually in a day we get about 3 or four turns on fire attack, give or take...
    I get the point about a shingle, I kinda agree as long as someone doesn't try to make it a bundle...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by johnsb View Post
      The "cure" for that is a crap load of pallets and straw and multiple setups. That way crews really get to knock down a fire and not have to worry about leaving something for the next guys. Of course that takes a lot of help.
      For training fires with my POC dept., we usually invite a another dept. or two. Usually we'll have seven teams or so, which rotate stations, a one of which helps supply the materials for the instructors. Our stations usually are;
      fire attack
      backup line
      RIT
      Outside vent
      Outside line (to keep fire out of the eaves)
      Rehab
      Pump ops and burn materials.

      We might have two rehab turns depending on how many people we have, and three per crew. Usually in a day we get about 3 or four turns on fire attack, give or take...
      I get the point about a shingle, I kinda agree as long as someone doesn't try to make it a bundle...
      There is a HUGE difference between burning in a burn tower, hence the name burn room firefighters, and burning in an acquired structure. By the way, what you describe pretty closely mirrors what we have been doing for about 30 years in acquired structures.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by WVFD705 View Post
        Old couches, mattresses, chairs, and carpet aren't that hard to come by. What would be the real problem, 1403 aside, with adding one or two of those to the pile? Would that not be a little more realistic look at what one would be expected to put out in a structure?
        The issue is that there is a large variety of materials that the couch,chair, carpet, etc could be made of, all having different flames and smoke characteristics making it difficult o know with certainty the conditions you will create when burning them. I say this knowing full well, as this is exactly what we did until just a few years ago. But when you start creating "black fire" in your small burn room/building and don't anticipate rapid ignition, bad things happen. With truly qualified instructors, actual learning before sticking recruits into these conditions, it can be done with limited risk, but the unknown will forever be unknown, increasing the risks. To that end, we've been pushed further and further from any risk until we reach the point we're at, creating more risk by underpreparing firefighters for the hazards.

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        • #19
          One of the downstate counties had a "flashover simulator." As I recall, they had to be careful just how much they loaded, as things could get out of hand very quickly. Seems like the fellow talking about it said a "standard" room of sofa, chair, and maybe a couple of end tables could very well constitute an overload.

          The simulator was made up of a couple of shipping containers. It wasn't a place to wear your "Sunday-go-to-meeting" turnouts - with temps approaching 600 degrees F, they wouldn't stay pretty very long. Participants had to be reminded not to take anything off until they cooled down. Dumping your gloves and trying to get your coat off was a guarantee of significant burns...
          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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          • #20
            I had a couple of friends that went to swim lessons at a young age. The first day the instructor grabbed them by the hair and held them underwater until they were about done struggling, so they would know what it was like to drown, and be forever against the idea of drowning. They never got in the water again.

            Instead of burning people up in a flashover simulator to teach them not to like flashovers, why not teach them to cool the compartment?
            The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
            There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
            Captain Dave LeBlanc

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tree68 View Post
              One of the downstate counties had a "flashover simulator." As I recall, they had to be careful just how much they loaded, as things could get out of hand very quickly. Seems like the fellow talking about it said a "standard" room of sofa, chair, and maybe a couple of end tables could very well constitute an overload.

              The simulator was made up of a couple of shipping containers. It wasn't a place to wear your "Sunday-go-to-meeting" turnouts - with temps approaching 600 degrees F, they wouldn't stay pretty very long. Participants had to be reminded not to take anything off until they cooled down. Dumping your gloves and trying to get your coat off was a guarantee of significant burns...
              LSU Fire Training still has a mobile flashover simulator, and it is still frequently used, but in a much kinder and gentler manner than a few instructors in the past used it.

              A few years ago the word came down from on how to tone it down as a large number of Chiefs were complaining to the powers that be that more than a few helmets and turnout gear had been damaged due to the high levels of heat that some of the instructors were generating. It's now used far more as a rollover simulator as compared to flashover.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by EastKyFF
                We've had a little bit of trouble with wiener-swinging instructors who want to brag about melting face shields and all that. It just goes to show that even their approved props aren't infallible if they are being operated by jackasses--the same problem as acquired structures.
                There were a couple that bragged about how many they chased out and how many shields they turned to putty. The rural Chiefs with a very limited gear replacement budget were not all that happy when 75% of the class or more needed replacement shields after the burns.
                Train to fight the fires you fight.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well, maybe in that situation the 2.5 should have been applied to the instructor.
                  The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
                  There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
                  Captain Dave LeBlanc

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I have been thinking about that. Probably use the water first to cool the compartment and the ego of the instructor, then make sure the hose is drained thoroughly by opening the bail, and using it like a long floppy striking device.

                    You know, for safety and such.
                    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
                    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
                    Captain Dave LeBlanc

                    Comment

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