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VEIS spawns a change in a common profane statement...

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  • VEIS spawns a change in a common profane statement...

    I believe because apparently some firefighters are either poorly trained, or simply too stupid, to know how to VES that the "I" had to be added. So now instead of VES: Vent, Enter, Search, we have VEIS: Vent, Enter, Isolate, Search. This is supposed to add clarity and end confusion.

    In the same vein I believe WTF should be changed to WITF to add grammatical correctness, add clarity, and end confusion. So WTF: What The F**K, will now be replaced with WITF: What In The F**K. Immediately implement this to end any and all comprehension problems that occur with using WTF.

    Thank you for your support.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  • #2
    Yhgtbsm!

    Lol

    Comment


    • #3
      Testify!! To me acronyms have very little place on the fireground. They're great for learning test answers, but in most cases, if you need to recall an acronym for life saving/life endangering events, someone (maybe yourself) has failed you. If you don't know (without hesitation) to isolate when performing VES, you should not be in that position. Similarly, if you're out front at the CP trying to remember COAL WAS WEALTH, it could be a bad day for your FD. How about LUNAR? Anyone truly in need of a rescue sitting in the corner thinking L is for location, U is for_____)?

      Many things need to be learned through repetition and practice,.so when you ascend that ladder and sound the floor (which we don't add to VEIS?) you just head to the door, without following some mental step by step process.

      So, maybe LVSEISE? To which I say WITF!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
        Testify!! To me acronyms have very little place on the fireground. They're great for learning test answers, but in most cases, if you need to recall an acronym for life saving/life endangering events, someone (maybe yourself) has failed you. If you don't know (without hesitation) to isolate when performing VES, you should not be in that position. Similarly, if you're out front at the CP trying to remember COAL WAS WEALTH, it could be a bad day for your FD. How about LUNAR? Anyone truly in need of a rescue sitting in the corner thinking L is for location, U is for_____)?

        Many things need to be learned through repetition and practice,.so when you ascend that ladder and sound the floor (which we don't add to VEIS?) you just head to the door, without following some mental step by step process.

        So, maybe LVSEISE? To which I say WITF!!
        It's funny to me because I teach RIT and I teach MayDay and I tell people about LUNAR and UCANLOCATE and then I say if you can remember WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT the problem is, and what will be needed to get you out, you are doing well.

        I teach a simplified size-up too. Who, where, what, what, who, what. WHO you are, Engine 1, WHERE you are 123 West Main, WHAT you see, WHAT your actions will be, stretching a line to go interior, WHO is command, Engine 1 is command, WHAT additional resources you will need.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
          It's funny to me because I teach RIT and I teach MayDay and I tell people about LUNAR and UCANLOCATE and then I say if you can remember WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT the problem is, and what will be needed to get you out, you are doing well.

          I teach a simplified size-up too. Who, where, what, what, who, what. WHO you are, Engine 1, WHERE you are 123 West Main, WHAT you see, WHAT your actions will be, stretching a line to go interior, WHO is command, Engine 1 is command, WHAT additional resources you will need.
          Not that I'm saying what your doing can't work, but my way of thinking says that you should learn all all the details, not simplify it, but at the point in your "career" that you're tasked with the responsibility of VES or commanding an initial response you should be comfortable enough that you don't need to even think about what your responsibilities are. A large part of the size-up is really complete by the time you arrive, so "simplifying the process" just lumps multiple items that must be considered into fewer categories. In fact what you describe above sounds more like what we can an initial arrival radio report, I doubt you hear many radio reports detailing all 13 points of COAL WAS WEALTH. Now that being said, I'm sure most of us teach inexperienced personnel above their current task level, as we recognize they very well may be first on scene or in some cases, the most trained person in their department.

          I'm just somewhat leery of over simplification allowing things to be missed or a truly algorithmic approach that doesn't fit a rapidly evolving fire scene. We've seen the quality of "cookbook medics" vs. those who have a true understanding of the "why's", and the level of care is far better with those with greater understanding.

          Again, to me, those things that we wish to recall at a seconds notice under stressful conditions are best learned through repetition.
          Last edited by RFDACM02; 08-21-2015, 11:13 AM. Reason: Keyboard caused misspelled words.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
            It's funny to me because I teach RIT and I teach MayDay and I tell people about LUNAR and UCANLOCATE and then I say if you can remember WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT the problem is, and what will be needed to get you out, you are doing well.

            I teach a simplified size-up too. Who, where, what, what, who, what. WHO you are, Engine 1, WHERE you are 123 West Main, WHAT you see, WHAT your actions will be, stretching a line to go interior, WHO is command, Engine 1 is command, WHAT additional resources you will need.
            I like that ... Except I would make one change. Well, two, actually.

            I would change the What to Why ... Why I need help ...... and then take the What and turn that into what I need.

            So I guess I'll use the Who, Where, Why and What method. I like that better than LUNAR.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
              Testify!! To me acronyms have very little place on the fireground. They're great for learning test answers, but in most cases, if you need to recall an acronym for life saving/life endangering events, someone (maybe yourself) has failed you. If you don't know (without hesitation) to isolate when performing VES, you should not be in that position. Similarly, if you're out front at the CP trying to remember COAL WAS WEALTH, it could be a bad day for your FD. How about LUNAR? Anyone truly in need of a rescue sitting in the corner thinking L is for location, U is for_____)?

              Many things need to be learned through repetition and practice,.so when you ascend that ladder and sound the floor (which we don't add to VEIS?) you just head to the door, without following some mental step by step process.

              So, maybe LVSEISE? To which I say WITF!!
              I'm with you. Acronyms are for test-takers. Plus, if you can remember the acronym you can probably remember the actual information. It can easily have the effect of dumbing down the fire service. Anyone fond of "clipboard commanders", the IC with the checklists? Does he/she inspire confidence?
              We are real good at learning HOW to do things. We are real good at learning WHAT things to do. We sometimes get lost when it comes to WHEN and WHY we do things. Or not to do things, which can be much more critical.

              Example:
              "Today we will drill on the techniques for venting a window. We will cover ladder placement, tool selection and safe techniques for properly taking a window at a structural fire."
              Nothing wrong with this lesson. It is information that needs to be known. But then some young firefighter goes to a house fire and doesn't know WHICH window to vent. Or WHEN to vent it. Or WHY it matters WHEN he/she vents it.

              I am encouraged by all of the recent talk about fire behavior. I hope it continues. I hope all departments make it a priority. Without this knowledge, combined with knowledge of building construction, the rest is kind of meaningless.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                Example:
                "Today we will drill on the techniques for venting a window. We will cover ladder placement, tool selection and safe techniques for properly taking a window at a structural fire."
                Nothing wrong with this lesson. It is information that needs to be known. But then some young firefighter goes to a house fire and doesn't know WHICH window to vent. Or WHEN to vent it. Or WHY it matters WHEN he/she vents it.
                That's an excellent example! Understandably its tough to remember everything and put it into action when there aren't a lot of incidents and opportunities to gain experience, but that is a reason to double down on realistic training and repetition. It seems our lives got so busy we don't have the same time to do everything, so we skim over to go for quantity vs. slowing down and shooting for quality. My dept. is no different, we struggle to meet the mandatory demands of the many hats we're wearing. As they say, "Jacks of all trades, Masters of none." Sooner of later this will bite us. No easy answers, just no slacking off.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                  It's funny to me because I teach RIT and I teach MayDay and I tell people about LUNAR and UCANLOCATE and then I say if you can remember WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT the problem is, and what will be needed to get you out, you are doing well.

                  I teach a simplified size-up too. Who, where, what, what, who, what. WHO you are, Engine 1, WHERE you are 123 West Main, WHAT you see, WHAT your actions will be, stretching a line to go interior, WHO is command, Engine 1 is command, WHAT additional resources you will need.
                  You forgot WHY, as in my butt is getting fried in here and you need to get me out ASAP....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Unfortunately, it is already biting us.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by johnsb View Post
                      You forgot WHY, as in my butt is getting fried in here and you need to get me out ASAP....
                      I believe I said WHAT as in what the problem is. Thus there is no need for why.
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There is far too much robotic WHAT training today without the accompanying WHY we do something or WHY we won't do that in this circumstance. The lack of the monkey wrench being thrown into repetitive, what, style training builds muscle memory that doesn't allow for critical thinking in times of emergency. It becomes even more difficult when you realize that standard certification testing doesn't call for critical thinking beyond the robotic WHAT of the task. How do you teach critical thinking, with the ability to adapt, when the JPRs for certification are robotic steps?
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Add to that the lack of real-world experience (ie, less fires) to use as examples, and the problem is compounded.
                          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                            Add to that the lack of real-world experience (ie, less fires) to use as examples, and the problem is compounded.
                            Add to that instructors with little, or no, real world experience that also only know the robotic what and not the why of what we do.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                              Add to that instructors with little, or no, real world experience that also only know the robotic what and not the why of what we do.
                              yep --- in my neck of the woods -- tons of "instructors" with 5 years experience -
                              ?

                              Comment

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