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**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

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  • William Moran
    Guest replied
    My department purchased the Vindicator Heavy Attack nozzle a few months ago and it has worked well in fires. The amount of water the nozzle flows is incredible and the reaction is unbelievibe. My department has been using 15/16" open bore nozzzles and find them very suitable for most situations so the vindicator will be another tool in the tool box.
    Good luck, Stay low, Stay safe

    Leave a comment:


  • KEA
    Guest replied
    Scott: Have you had a chance to see which hose expanded the most under pressure? I have found Snap-tite Conquest to expand the least. Angus rates their hose friction loss based on a residual pressure of 100-psi. This is because while at 100-psi it expands thus having a larger ID than when not at 100-psi.

    As far as delamination goes, Call Getzville NY VOL fire Department. They had one of the worst cases of delamination in my history and turns out it wasnt just them. Their was a District wide purchase of hose and when they found theirs bad and started checking other departments in the District it was discovered that they all had the problem.

    To All:

    We have found that the best way to identify a delamination problem is to flow test your new hose to determine a baseline FL number in a new condition. Then during the annual 1962 hose test, also flow test it and compare to the established baseline. Over time you will start to see a degredation pattern for the FL of the hose (depending on brand) indicating a problem.

    I had not found any delamination in hose either until we started flow testing it. I have had hose that would pass the pressure test annually yet could not flow more than 100 gpm because of delamination. Getsville, NY was one of those situations. They now have replaced their hose with Snap-tite Ponn Conquest. (No, I did not sell it to them!)

    Sorry for being off topic but I thought this information was worth sharing.

    Happy Easter



    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    Leave a comment:


  • SBrooks
    Guest replied
    Excellent Test scott, just verifying: 2 50' sections used for each?

    Leave a comment:


  • Halligan84
    Guest replied
    Scott - About 15 years ago a hose manufacturer provided us a rebuild for a 1500 GPM pump and all new 5" and 3" for 3 engines after we sucked the liner of a 5" through the pump during a high flow relay drill. This was apparently a first generation type of liner and didn't hold up too well. Pretty interesting to see the liner of the hose wrapped around the pump impeller and shaft. It actually caved in the strainer. If I can find a pick I'll send it.

    Leave a comment:


  • S. Cook
    Guest replied
    Thanks for the good words M G. It's off topic, but since it came up, here's some information on the hoses.

    We evaluated 4 hoses - Conquest, Hi-combat, N-Dura and Ponn Supreme

    Our evelauation found the Ponn Conquest 1-3/4" hose to be an estimated 1.94" in inside diameter (.06" less than 2" and .19" more than 1-3/4") compared to N-Dura and Ponn Supreme which has an estimated inside diameter of 1-3/4".

    How we estimated this:

    Measured the empty flat thickness of the hose (Ponn .30 and N-Dura and Ponn Supreme .50), charged the line to 100psi, bled the air out and calculated the diameter from the measured circumference (Ponn 7", N-Dura and Ponn Supreme 6.5") then subtracted the measured empty thickness from the calculated charged to 100psi diameter.

    Hi combat measures:

    Flat - 0.38"
    Charged circumference - 6-3/4"
    Estimated inside diameter - 1.77"

    What difference did all this make?

    Testing all 1-3/4" hose off the same side pump discharge:

    Open butt flow at 150psi gauge and EP

    Ponn - 48psi pitot = 501gpm
    Hi Combat - 36psi pitot = 434gpm
    N-Dura - 38psi pitot = 446gpm
    Ponn Supreme - 40psi pitot = 457gpm

    15/16 at 85psi gauge and EP

    Ponn - 60psi pitot = 202gpm
    Hi Combat - 52psi pitot = 188gpm
    N-Dura - 52psi pitot = 188gpm
    Ponn Supreme - 56psi pitot = 195gpm

    15/16 at 115psi gauge and EP

    Ponn - 85psi pitot = 241gpm
    Hi Combat - 70psi pitot = 218gpm
    N-Dura - 74psi pitot = 225gpm
    Ponn Supreme - 78psi pitot = 231gpm

    15/16 at 150psi gauge and EP

    Ponn - 110psi pitot = 274gpm
    Hi Combat - 100psi pitot = 261gpm
    N-Dura - 86psi pitot = 242gpm
    Ponn Supreme - 96psi pitot = 256gpm

    (A little extra information - at each of these flows a 135# firefighter was on the line alone, handling it as she would on an aggressive inside attack with the exception of advancing it.)

    And in nearly 15 years as a firefighter, I have yet to see a hose delaminate. Has anyone else?

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    Guest replied
    Big Paulie

    to bad you didn't take Bobby's invite to see the Big V do its thing in Lewisville this week.

    Yeah, I was even in the area (tithing at the Temple of Bass Fishing) on Thursday evening.

    With a open mind I think you would have been impressed.

    I have an open mind, but I'm also a skeptic (on just about everything).

    Did you guys fight any fire with it?

    This hunting and pecking typing is hard on the body.

    Man I know what you mean! And as long winded as I can get - it's good aerobic exercise. (How about letting me know your secret for getting the wife to type for you.)

    DD

    Thanks for the reply. Let me know if you get around to doing a side by side with nozzles of the same bore.

    There is a spring loaded mechanism...

    Is this like on a combo or something different?

    Leave a comment:


  • P.P.
    Guest replied
    I sell fire equipment, which includes nozzles (Akron, Elkhart, TFT and Vindicators). The training that I was provided from First Strike to sell the Vindicator was unlike any I had before. The presentation is more educating than it is a sales pitch. It would surprise me if anyone sat through a presentation and did not pick-up at least one thing that would benefit them.

    I also use the Vindicator on my fire department. We were using Akron and TFT nozzles. We did testing with pressure gauges and a flow meter of all of our equipment. After that we determined what would work best for us was the Vindicators and Elkhart Chief nozzles.

    As far as what hose is used during a demo, I will always use the hose that the fire department is currently using. I do carry Ponn Conquest and will show it if the department wants to see it. The Vindicator will work on any brand of hose, but some hose is better than others.

    M G - You said that you used the Vindicator at the FDIC. What class was it that you were taking and who was teaching it? Your statement that not a lot of people are using it, does that mean that it can't be a good product? There are a whole of things in the fire service today that are used by everyone that at one or another not a lot of people were using. All I would say is sit through a presentation and make the decision for yourself.

    There are a lot of positive comments from people who have used it in real lfe. Even the LT. from FDNY said that it does flow more water than his 15/16th smooth bore with less reaction and it worked fine on the fire. His dislikes were not concerning a suppression point of view, they were on overhaul and other things. The Vindicator is NOT to replace all other nozzles. It is a tool to be used like any other tool.

    I am anxious to see what BIG PAUILE has to say now that he has had a chance to see the presentation.

    Stay Safe!

    P.P.

    Leave a comment:


  • DD
    Guest replied
    Mongo;

    We don't have a solid bore tip that will fit on the 1-1/2" thread shutoff which is larger than 15/16", so I haven't tried it. I'm sure that a larger diameter solid bore tip will produce larger flows at the same NP. We flow the solid bore and the Vindicator at 50 NP. I like the huge droplets that the V produces. It doesn't need the wall or ceiling impingement like the solid bore stream.
    I don't know the bore of the V nozzle. I'll try to measure it. There is a spring loaded
    mechanism and vanes inside of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • BIG PAULIE
    Guest replied
    hey Mongo to bad you didn't take Bobby's invite to see the Big V do its thing in Lewisville this week. With a open mind I think you would have been impressed. I sure was. More to follow as soon as I can get my wife to type because I have a lot to say. This hunting and pecking typing is hard on the body.

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    Guest replied
    Cheif Reason

    2-1/2" nozzles that had an adjustable head, ball valve and rubber handles on each side as "claypipes". .... is there such a thing?

    Playpipe as DD pointed out.

    I don't want to look stupid.

    Too late

    But in your defense, the guy that told you that's what it was originally might have been pulling your chain to get you to spread it around and get hit like this one day. He got you

    Our neighbors to the south bought a 2-1/2" vindicator for their deck gun and had to buy their village a new stop sign.

    Unfortunately, not impressed, you can do that with any deckgun.

    Send me your email at [email protected] and I will get you the results.

    [email protected]

    our's flew out of the mattydale onto the roadway. We filed off the rough edge, smacked it once with a rubber mallet and it works like a champ.

    Why did you hit it with a mallet?

    And you never answered the flow question regarding your truck fire (combo vs vindicator).

    DD

    The 15/16" solid bore, for at least 15 years, had been my favorite nozzle. It's is now second to the Vindicator Heavy Attack nozzle.

    What is the difference in orifice diameter and nozzle pressures between the Vindicator and the 15/16"?

    If they are different, have you compared a smoothbore of the same orifice diameter on the 1.75" line?

    How about nozzle pressures?

    If so, what were your thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • M G
    Guest replied
    a. Tried it. Granted it was for about 1 minute at 2001 FDIC but it didn't overly impress me and I I've gotta say its pretty damn noisy. The guys pumping it and showing it couldn't seem to make it do what it was supposed to do (supposedly it wasn't flowing the flows that they were told it should).

    b. I have followed these boards and seen the arguments back and forth. At this point I'm not sold.

    c. I have the booklets and videos

    d. The proof is usually in the use. I don't see these things out there and being used a lot. Not that they aren't, but I'm not seeing them much. If I didn't seek information and browse through places like here I would have no idea what this thing (vindicator) was.

    Anyhow, I'm not discrediting this device yet and I will keep my eyes and ears peeled to learn more about it. I don't care if you think my skepticism is unwarranted thats my right. Thanks for your reply, points considered.

    ------------------
    The information presented herein is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

    Leave a comment:


  • DD
    Guest replied
    Chief, it is called a PLAYPIPE .

    We bought a Heavy Attack Vindicator after doing flow tests with our hose. The salesman
    did not take his hose out of his truck. Our 1-3/4" is labeled Hoosier, I do not know who manufactured it. We used a 200 ft lay, right out of the Mattydale bed.

    On of our guys used the Pitot on a solid bore to verify the flow meter calibration. Another recorded the flows on the meter and I recorded the discharge & pump pressures during the flow tests.

    The 15/16" solid bore, for at least 15 years, had been my favorite nozzle. It's is now second to the Vindicator Heavy Attack nozzle.

    They bore & the Vindicator both work well on the same ball shutoff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chief Reason
    Guest replied
    Mongo:
    What do you know about me and a fence? All's I will say is that it was at a barn fire and involves a sow and a fence. I'll come back to your questions, but first I want to address comments made by MG.
    MG: You said that you don't believe in the "funky-looking contraption". What's so funky-looking? Ever seen a foam nozzle, commonly referred to as a donkey-di**? Now, that is funky looking! You also said that the Vindicator made you curious, interested and skeptical. If someone came up to me and said "We want to take these battery cables and hook them up to your genitals; it will be fun", I would be curious, interested and skeptical! When Kirk puts on a demonstration, YOU are an active participant. After you have had the pleasure of using one, you either buy one or you don't. There shouldn't be any skepticism. It's not going to shrink if it gets wet. It won't unravel or develop any bad habits. It will squirt alot of water a long ways. You get to use it and abuse it with Kirk's blessing. Now, there is some discussion about what type of hose he uses. Doesn't matter. Kirk made my department aware of a laminating problem that we might never have found had he not brought it to our attention. He is not just a salesman; he's an educator. MG, I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. I am telling you to get your hands on one, give it a good goin' over and decide for yourself. You aren't going to find your answer on this website; the truth is out THERE!
    Mongo; on your question about a claypipe. When I got on the department 20 years ago, the guys on at the time referred to these 2-1/2" nozzles that had an adjustable head, ball valve and rubber handles on each side as "claypipes". I assume it is because when you would disconnect them from the hose and look down them, they looked like red clay inside. That's what I have called them ever since. You are as wise a man as I know; is there such a thing? I don't want to look stupid. Your question about water delivery of smooth bore vs. vindicator. That is a tough one, because, as you know, flow and reach varies depending on size of tip. Vindicator is a low pressure/high volume nozzle. At 100 psi, you might get a tight pattern on a 1-1/8" tip, but not much reach. Plus, your pattern begins to break up at approximately 150 feet. We did a side-by-side comparison of a straight tip vs. vindicator. Everything was same-same, but we played with the tips of the straight bore. The vindicator was affected less by the wind that was blowing that night. The pattern remained tight and reach was from Buldoc's to the road(over 200 feet). Not very scientific, I know, but we didn't measure that night. There has been alot of talk about apples to apples comparison. I don't know that it's possible unless you are comparing two vindicators. I like combos for the adjustable pattern. I like straight bores for "big water". I like the vindicator for its intense and immediate knock down capabilities. It gives my firefighters extraordinary confidence. Plus, this nozzle bugs the crap out of a neighboring chief to the west. You got to like that, Mongo.
    Our neighbors to the south bought a 2-1/2" vindicator for their deck gun and had to buy their village a new stop sign. They set up at the hydrant at the opposite end of the block and hit the stop sign at the other end of the block and twisted the sign around on its post. Absolutely true. I can tell you that we just got a brand new digital flow meter and in the past where have used Pitot, we will be flow testing nozzles and hoses in June. Send me your email at [email protected] and I will get you the results. Well, you ask the question Kirk keeps asking. Personal protection has been and always will be numero uno. Bunkers, SCBAs, passports, communication equipment eats alot of the money. We are sitting pretty good, but I let the guys on our equipment committee recommend the purchases.
    When you saw how quick the Feds snatched the 10 million for administration, it kinda makes me glad that they didn't give us the whole 5 billion at once. Greed, man, is a terrible thing. I wonder if any professional organizations got some to "help" departments write a grant? Anyway, Mongo, I wish that I was more technically in tune for you, but Kirk is much better at describing the technical aspects of his "funky-looking" nozzle. But, as I said, we will be flowing this summer and for those of you who wonder about the durability of this nozzle: our's flew out of the mattydale onto the roadway. We filed off the rough edge, smacked it once with a rubber mallet and it works like a champ. Again, it worked for us. Some results may vary. Void where prohibited. Employees and their relatives are not eligible.
    Th-Th-That's all folks.
    Chief Reason

    Leave a comment:


  • LHS*
    Guest replied
    Just call that make of 1 3/4" 2", you'd get the same performance with the other guys hose if you bought 2". I bet if I labeled my 2 1/2" hose 1 3/4" it would flow more too!

    Leave a comment:


  • M G
    Guest replied
    I am fairly certain he uses Ponn Conquest (which the hose Ponn [snap-tite] markets as 1 3/4 coincidentally is truly measured at bigger than 1 3/4"). Now I am not making an accusation or anything like that. Also Capt. Cook from Granbury Tx did a good test on the Conquest hose and was gracious enough to share with us, perhaps he would share with others if he sees this. Im sorry but I still dont believe in this funky looking contraption. It has me curious and interested but im very skeptical.

    ------------------
    The information presented herein is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

    Leave a comment:

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