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**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

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  • LHS*
    Guest replied

    I think every nozzle is putting out fires somewhere. Obviously flows of 95 to 150 are more common than anything else. Sure high flow can in some cases put a fire out quicker. Statements that in just seconds a room was out are nothing special it happens everyday with every nozzle somewhere. Now does it make sense to spend $500 bucks for a new nozzle when the old nozzle is doing just fine or is that alleged 1 or 2 seconds everything? When the nozzle you already own can flow more with lower reaction would you still change nozzles? There is nothing wrong with todays or yesterdays nozzles. There is a big push to get you dump perfectly good nozzles by the nozzle guys though.

    If I take on a bedroom at 500 gpm, 300 gpm or 60 gpm it goes out doesn't it??

    KEA


    //I must admit some confusion on your support of that letter though.

    My support huh? Sir I stated the fact that a union member of their department wrote about the nozzle, that holds a lot of weight with union members.

    Oh, you know the letter says a lot more than he ran out of water.

    //If they are happier with less water from the nozzles they are using then great. That is their choice and I respect that.

    Actually they flow the same or more with their other nozzles.

    //I would not want to use a nozzle without being trained either.

    They were trained, they simply chose not to use the odd ball nozzle.

    //I guess you havent been with the engine companies that have been trained and are using it.

    Untrue, Houston doesn’t put the rigs out in the street until the crews have been trained. You nozzle was sitting in the compartment by choice.

    So as you can clearly see, they are not on use on 85 houston engines, they are carried but hardly used. Oh, they carry hose jackets on all 85 rigs too and they never use those either.

    //could you tell me what the purpose of the internal fins are and why they are milled to a specific angle and its relationship to fire suppression?

    Propaganda

    //You have been true to form and your continued brow beating of me and our product are welcomed

    Gee if you making a bunch of claims on use by a customer and my refuting them with facts are a brow beating?? You want to use the excuse that funding is the reason HFD doesn’t buy your nozzle in quantity, bull! They don’t want your nozzle, if they did they’d buy it 5 to 1 instead of 1 to 5 wouldn’t they??? It is simply an experiment of one per rig on new apparatus only not a departmental change out. You state the only ones not using them have not been trained. That is a another pile of bull.

    Oh if the best you can do to build you product up is to say, “Everyone knows he is very close friends with..“ It must not be very good.

    I also like the comment by you that unless you’ve had a presentation you couldn’t possibly use or understand the nozzle. If that is the case, how many of the nations fire service do you intend on ever reaching and when??? Seems to me the stream and flow do the talking for any nozzle.

    85 rigs and you can only name one with a nozzle on a preconnect????

    [

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-02-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • ADSN/WFLD
    Guest replied
    I would like to know where this hatred for the Vindicator came from. Larry, did you loose a building because the Vindicator didn't flow as much as is was supposed to? NO Did people die because a booster line fire couldn't be extinguished by the vindicator? NO. Do you have some personal experience that makes you feel that the Vindicator is dangerous to use? NO.
    Their is no one product, except for the halligan perhaps, that every firefighter likes.
    I wouldn't force a firefighter who was unfamiliar with the vindicator to use it. Even though I prefer it.
    I've been on fires where a TFT nozzle was used and WOW the fire went out. If I could do the same fire again I would prefer to use the vindicator, or a 15/16 solid stream, or a SM20, or the elkhart chief. Actually I prefer just about any nozzle over the TFT. It doesn't mean that it can't do the job, I just don't like it. For me A TFT is cumbersome, heavy, and has a disproportionately high nozzle reaction. It may be the nozzles design, or the shutoff, or the pistol grip. My point is that I have experience with the TFT and that experience has lead to my dislike of that nozzle. I also have experience with the vindicator and that experience has lead to my preference with it.
    IndFF I would like to also hear more stories about the vindicator in use. Good or bad. Almost none of us go to enough fires to really see any of our tools in all of the situations that we may face, so we need to hear the good and bad from people who have some different experiences than us.
    I hope to hear from some of you, on this post, who have used the vindicator at actual incidents.

    Leave a comment:


  • SBrooks
    Guest replied
    Kirk explained the nozzle reaction to me as this.

    Water travels through, and in fact exits, the nozzle at a slight angle to the centerline of the nozzle, i believe 17+/- degrees. So the nozzle reaction is actually NR*cos(theta), approximately a 5% reduction over a smoothbore at the same flow and np. This is similar to a fog nozzle operated a narrow fog, except that instead of creating a diverging fog pattern, the stream is "straightened" by the action of the entrained air. Additionallly, though I'm not sure, the design of the nozzle may allow a decent stream to be made a lower nozzle pressures than conventional nozzles.

    Kirk, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • BIG PAULIE
    Guest replied
    fyred. Boy I leave town for 2 days and all hell breaks loose. When I left there were 2 hits on this discusson. Anyway fyred up what are you talking about? You said that I continue to slam this product when this is my first reply to this post. Check it out your self. First off Larry has been a friend of mine and will continue to be but I don't support his way of discussion in the forums. Second Yes I did initially not think to much of the Vindicator but have since done some research and had some talk with Kirk and will be persuing training with the Vindicator boys to learn more. I know for a fact that they are getting the flows they say they are. I am pretty sure that the nozzle reaction is lower then most if not all nozzles at the same flows however I don't quite understand how that is accomplished. So I will go to school and learn.

    Leave a comment:


  • KEA
    Guest replied
    Larry:
    I would like to respond but first I want you and everyone else to know, my responses are with a smile and not intended to start an argument or create a disterbance in the Force.

    Larry, I always welcome your input. It always brings glowing lights of awarness to the readers! If my statement was incoreect that your freinds with the onwers of TFT I stand corrected. If you took that statement as an implication that you have a "relationship" with them in a business sense I'm sorry. That is not what was said or meant.

    /Looks like TFT's are 4 to 1 on every engine./

    I couldnt tell you what the ratio is Larry but if thats what it is great! They bought One Vindicator for each of the new engines just like I stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

    /I think if there were ever more actually in use and not sitting in a compartment the letter in the union paper about the nozzle probably killed it./

    I must admit some confusion on your support of that letter though. The author cleary states that "I do not doubt the nozzles ability to flow 250-gpm" and then goes on to state that he has run out of water prior to a supply line being established. Sounds like a training issue more than a flow problem. However in all due respect to those who want less water on their initial attack line, don't pick the Vindicator.

    If they are happier with less water from the nozzles they are using then great. That is their choice and I respect that.

    /The 10 newest rigs were delivered to the companies after training with the nozzles still in plastic in a compartment./

    If they were still packaged can we agree the training you claim they recieved did not include the nozzle? If so great. I would not want to use a nozzle without being trained either.

    /I've been on numerous multi-alarm structure fires and have yet to see one in use./

    I guess you havent been with the engine companies that have been trained and are using it. Sorry. Give Station 68 a call. I'm sure they would let you ride along. Or better yet, Call Captain Mendall who is one of the Safety Officers in Houston. I know he has used it many times.

    /Contact houston IAFF and ask for the letter that appeared in their paper./

    The address is:
    Houston Fire Fighter
    1907 Freeman Street
    Houston, TX 77009

    The letter speaks volumes to many issues of which Larry under any other situation I believe that you would say are training related. I hope everyone gets a copy so they can read for themselves and better understand the real situation. A quote from the author: "I request further testing and evaluation of the Vindicator - hose combination with at least some type of formal training". Wow, didn't I mention its a training issue? I also have flow results from Station 8 that dispute the authors friction loss numbers used to support a position against high flows for those who would like a copy.

    /Flows the same as a smothbore tip at similar pressures nd a low pressure fog./

    Thanks Larry Wow, we have moved up in the world. Past posts you stated that the smooth bore kicked our tail. I love improvement.

    /Why did the Elkhart and Akron guys sit in my class at FAMA and ask me for info??/

    I would assume because they believed you knew something they did not, but if you really want to know, I'm not the one to ask.

    /If you've got something to say, say it./

    I'm not sure what you mean?

    /Why is it the Houston guys who are officers in volunteer departments keep buying Akron turbojets with their own money and not the nozzles on their pumpers at work???/

    I think they would be the ones to ask but since you brought it up, are you implying that they like the Akrons better than their TFT nozzles? I didn't mention Vindicators because you imply they are not being used anyway.


    /Why does Akron want to pay me for nozzle info? /

    Thats a great question

    /Are they stupid, or no normal firefighter can figure out what works for himself without having the propaganda minister there???/

    Who is "they"?

    /Propaganda Minister/

    Thanks Larry! I can take it
    Any one who has ever attended our presentation knows that there is no propaganda.

    Considering you have so much experience with our product Larry could you tell me what the purpose of the internal fins are and why they are milled to a specific angle and its relationship to fire suppression?

    /And we all know how accurate flow meters are!/

    Even if they are not accurate, which comes from not calibrating them, their use provides a relative comparison that is very important and valuable.

    If the flow is off, it will be off for everythnig thus still showing the difference.


    Larry I'm sorry that my mentioning your freindship with TFT was taken as dragging you into this discussion. I truly apoligize for that. It was not intended to imply anything more. You have been true to form and your continued brow beating of me and our product are welcomed. I dont think I could buy this type of advertising!

    In closing I would like to say thanks to all who have been so supportive over the years. We have done our best to build our business on a rock and are confident that the foundation that has been laid will last for quite some time.

    God Bless and Stay Safe!



    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • Bobby Halton
    Guest replied
    Hi Everyone, I am Bobby Halton a battalion chief for the City of Albuquerque Fire Department and a "Vindicator guy". I am not a great Techno type and I also don't feel very comfortable in confrontational environments so I apologize upfront for not attacking anyone. And am saddened that others have been angered by their names appearing in this post. Please accept my condolences for your discomfort.

    If I could reference Mongos point and agree with him that good fire service organizations allow the troops to decide what tip to take into a fire. I would also like to mention again where I work is "B" shift third battalion Albuquerque New Mexico. Here our Engine 5 and Engine 8 who are our busiest and our most seasoned respectfully, have done a one year evaluation on the Vindicator and recommended we put one 1 3/4" on one of our three preconnects on every engine next to our SM20's and our TFT's. They also recommended we put a 2 1/2 Vindicator on our blitz attack line. We also are purchasing 15/16" and 7/8" smooth bores for the the officers to use at their discretion. Our members at these houses sit on our Safety and Deployment committees.

    Our process is to allow the users to determine the products for purchase through these committees. Not "guys in the clouds". We always try to get the Reps to meet with these teams and I must say TFT Elkhart Vindicator and Akron have always been very accomidating in allowing us to use, abuse and generally beat the daylights out of their stuff. We are very fortunate to have some great reps in our area. And they all represent great products. They are all different they all work well and we belive "use the right tool at the right time"

    I have invited Mongo to come to our department and visit. I hope wherever he is on the job might they be willing to look at how we do business. We believe the American Fire Service has some of the best equipment ever to pick from and our members on the job have the training, experience and wisdom to pick the right nozzle for the right job. It would be silly to expect any nozzle to be the right nozzle for every fire. We enjoy using combination nozzles, smooth bores and Vindicators. We try to provide the best equipment and training so our crews can pick what tool to take in.

    We are a Metro-size job and we fight a good amount of fires. We have officers and crews who prefer TFT some who prefer Akron, Elkhart and some who prefer the vindicators. I hope we always can provide them all what they feel most comfortable and always allow them the opportunity to try something new.

    The American Firefighter is the best firefighter in the world and will always be model people hold up to their children as an example of decency. I hope we can get back on track with our discussion and keep the insults and hostilities to private emails.

    If I have offended anyone I apologize here and now completely and sincerely. I am an open supporter of the Vindicator and combination nozzles and smooth bores and haligan tools and rabbit tools and thermal imaging cameras. I am sorry that hand tools can cause people to react so intensely.

    Please feel free to contact me at my e-mail address. Be safe, stay low and most importantly BE NICE TO ONE ANOTHER. Until we meet again may the the Good Lord hold you all and all those you love safe in the palm of His loving hand.
    Fraternally your brother Bobby Halton
    These opinions are mime and mine alone thanks for your taking the time to read and share. Bobby
    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by Bobby Halton (edited 04-01-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • LHS*
    Guest replied


    KEA, seeing as how you

    drag my name into this topic, I'll be happy to report what is going on.

    ///Your sources are misfinformed.

    At last count 10 rigs had one preconnect tipped with a Vindicator. Course I've only all 85 engines with my own eyes. And my info is at barely a week old. Looks like TFT's are 4 to 1 on every engine.

    I think if there were ever more actually in use and not sitting in a compartment the letter in the union paper about the nozzle probably killed it. The 10 newest rigs were delivered to the companies after training with the nozzles still in plastic in a compartment.

    I've been on numerous multi-alarm structure fires and have yet to see one in use.

    As far as th ciy's budget, the FD will buy what ever they want whenever they want it.

    Gee Fyredup,

    //It just amazes me that anytime anyone mentions the Vindicator nozzle that someone out of either the LHS or Paulie camp have to make the same old tired comments. ??

    I didn't say squat about this thing, but seeing as how you think my name needs to be drug in here, I'll say what I know. Firefighters decide what tool to use. Contact houston IAFF and ask for the letter that appeared in their paper. Why are only 10 rigs running one attack line with a Vindicator and 4 with a TFT??? Sounds like a choice to me. I don't care.

    //If you don't like the nozzle or don't want to use it fine. But stop trying to twist or end all discussion on it on the forums.

    What are you talking about???


    KEA

    //Everyone knows he is very close freinds with the owners of TFT and his comments have been anything but positive on our product even though he has never had a presentation on it.

    Golly I've only used your nozzle 3 to 5 times a day for 3 months with a whole bunch of others. Flows the same as a smothbore tip at similar pressures nd a low pressure fog. I've only bought 150K worth of nozzles in the last 2 months, funny thing, I don't recall buying any TFT's. What is this relationship you are talking about TFT? I think some would say with two other companies they are very good friends with me. If you've got something to say, say it. Why is it the Houston guys who are officers in volunteer departments keep buying Akron turbojets with their own money and not the nozzles on their pumpers at work??? To the tune of 390 nozzles last month?? Are they stupid, or no normal firefighter can figure out what works for himself without having the propaganda minister there???

    // the ONLY manufacture that REQUIRED any and all reps or distributors to use flow meters and pressure gauges so that all the facts are laid on the table by equipment not people.

    And we all know how accurate flow meters are!



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-02-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • ffnbs
    Guest replied
    I'll keep out of the technicals in this one because I'm a pretty non-technical guy. We have two of these nozzles (for 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" hose) and in my opinion they do what they say about gpm's. As for reach, that's another story. These nozzles have their place, I wouldn't screw this nozzle on the hoseline if we needed deep penatration (sp?) into a well involved big box store such as a supermarket. If your department uses class-A foam, because of the design these nozzles seem to do wonders for the finished foam stream with the air aspirating holes.

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    Guest replied
    I got your email but I cant keep you posted about being in your area if I dont know where your from or who you are.

    I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex.

    And you know, I was just thinking. If Dallas puts it in service, it probably won't be long before we do too.

    And (not trying to sound like I'm disgruntled or knocking your product) you won't even have to demo it, the powers that be will just order them and say:

    "Here, put the hose on this end, water comes out this end, point the end the water comes out of at the fire and pull this lever. You (pointing to the engineer) make sure there's at least 50psi at this end of the hose - you do the math. But if mongo wants more water, run it up 'til he asks you to stop."

    (Now ADSN/WFLD see why I comment and have questions?)

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-01-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-01-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • KEA
    Guest replied
    Mongo:
    /That's why in all things I encourage people to gather all the facts, do their own research and make up their own minds. It is unfortunate that some do not want us to be able to do this and some of us just don't want to, assuming that just because they percieve someone to be smarter than they are they must be right./

    DITTO! We are proud of the FACT that we were the first and to my knowledge the ONLY manufacture that REQUIRED any and all reps or distributors to use flowmeters and pressure gauges so that all the facts are laid on the table by equipment not people.

    I got your email but I cant keep you posted about being in your area if I dont know where your from or who you are.

    Thanks


    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    Guest replied
    ADSN/WFLD

    ...you need to try out the Vindicator before saying anything else.

    I didn't know there were rules about asking questions or commenting on a generic (to nozzles) evaluation process or fire stream physics. Where are they posted so I can get a copy and not take up anymore of your time?

    I wonder if you would be willing to heed your own advice and not say anything else about, or comment on, anything until you try it?

    I'm 100% certain your answer is the same as mine. But I've been wrong before...

    It is a good nozzle.

    Never said or tried to imply it wasn't.

    Not once I have I commented on what it can or cannot do or added an opinion about it.

    It can't do everything,

    No nozzle can.

    Go to a demo and you'll see for yourself how useful the vindicator is.

    I've asked to be informed of local demos so that I can try to attend one.

    KEA

    After sitting through dozens of sales presentations from certain competitors it amazes me how many times they make a statement as if it were fact yet leave out a very big part of the equation.

    That's why in all things I encourage people to gather all the facts, do their own research and make up their own minds. It is unfortunate that some do not want us to be able to do this and some of us just don't want to, assuming that just because they percieve someone to be smarter than they are they must be right.

    Leave a comment:


  • STATION2
    Guest replied
    Hello all, been a while. We've been down this road before haven't we. The original post was about FDNY and the vindicator. I use them in Houston on Engine Co. 68 and in my volunteer department. Kirk came out to Stafford and we did apple to apples comparisons with our TFT's. No contest and we now have 2 on every Engine Co. Our newly arrived Tower will soon have them also. Put one on a 2 1/2" line a let me know what you think. Kirk, E-Mail me about getting them for our Tower please. Scott, I can get you in touch with Captain Reed. We have had some interesting conversations recently about the Colombus and FDNY evaluation. As for him not calling you back, Engine 68 isn't exactly a retirement community with 15-18 runs a day. As for the nozzle I'll sum it up like this. Don't knock it until you try it (and bring a flow meter). Be safe.

    Larry

    Leave a comment:


  • KEA
    Guest replied
    Scott:
    /I figured I'd just wait until you came back to this area and I'd attend a demo./

    I would appreciate that Scott. I'm sorry I failed to call you when I was down there two weeks ago. We did a presentation in Lewisville, TX just north of Dallas. Chief Lasky would be the point of contact.

    I know I will be back in Dallas shortly for more training with DFD. I will let you know the dates and your welcome to attend.


    /You tell us that the negatives you hear are only from certain competitors or their friends, yet Larry is not a competitor and although he's a friend of Shapiro and Shapiro sells a nozzle, he's posted how to build his yourself on occassions in these forums -/

    I have no grief with Paul. We have had some great discussions. I in no way was implying that Paul was one of those spreading negatives. In fact, Paul has posted that the nozzle does in fact do what we say. Now Larry is a whole different subject matter. Everyone knows he is very close freinds with the owners of TFT and his comments have been anything but positive on our product even though he has never had a presentation on it.

    /I know it's not a combo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a nutshell isn't it essentially a smooth bore with some aspirating holes and a stream shaper downstream of the nozzle discharge? My point is/was it's more a smooth bore than a fog and to compare apples to apples. I didn't slam or otherwise knock your nozzle, just asked for an apples to apples comparison from someone that claimed your nozzle had a lower reaction than a nozzle that by design should have a higher reaction./

    I will have to e-mail you my response so there is no one screaming at me about discusing our product on the forums.


    /By the way, have you let Paul test your nozzle?/

    As of yet no. We have had numerous e-mails about our upcoming schedule for the West Coast and Paul has been invited to join us on some of those demonstrations. Once the presentation is complete I have no problem with him using the product.

    /Ind.FF/EMT we haven't evaluated it, Kirk chose not to let us evaluate his nozzle for business reasons. That's ashamed too, we just spent close to $60,000 on nozzles for 10 new apparatus. Had we evaluated it and found it to be something we could use, we would have bought some./

    I was unaware that you were wanting to evaluate for purchase. I was under the impression you wanted it for a nozzle reaction comparison you were doing. My mistake!



    /If a Vindicator gets dropped and the end gets knocked out of round, what would that do to the pattern or the nozzles effectiveness?/

    I will email you my response.

    Mongo
    Couldnt agree with you more. Any one who has read my posts know I do my best to stick to physics without the sales pitch.

    After sitting through dozens of sales presentations from certain competitors it amazes me how many times they make a statement as if it were fact yet leave out a very big part of the equation.

    As an example, So many sales pitches talk about a 100-psi stream moving at a certain speed. Well the speed they talk about is based on 100-psi discharge pressure yet the truth is the nozzle they are trying to sell is not delivering a 100-psi exit pressure. Inlet pressure, yes, but not exit pressure. This was confirmed by Cottrells work on the subject many years ago.

    As far as your email. No, I have not yet recieved it.

    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    Leave a comment:


  • ADSN/WFLD
    Guest replied
    Enough already, Mongo you need to try out the Vindicator before saying anything else. It is a good nozzle. It can't do everything, but as a general purpose nozzle on an attack line and a foam nozzle the vindicator excels. Go to a demo and you'll see for yourself how useful the vindicator is.

    We have had them on the rigs for quite a while now and we consider them the first line off.

    Leave a comment:


  • mongofire_99
    Guest replied
    I dont recall anywhere on our site that discusses a max pressure. This page should clear up you confusion. http://www.1ststriketech.com/Features.htm

    Well, it didn't...

    If I may quote from the 4th paragraph on the referenced page:

    "It can operate as low as 25psi or as high as 125psi."

    I would think that "as high as" means max although it doesn't specifically state "max".

    The pressure I posted was taken from your products page where it says:

    "90-200 gpm for standard hand line operations. For use on 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" hose. Capable of 95 gpm at 50 psi. NP and 200 gpm at 100psi. NP." for the VLA;

    "175-425 gpm for heavy hand line attack units. Capable of 250 gpm at 50 psi. NP through 1 3/4" hose and 425 gpm at 100 psi. NP through 2 1/2" hose." for the VHA;

    "250-500 gpm for 2 1/2" hand lines. Capable of 325 gpm at 50 psi. NP through 2 1/2" hose and 500 gpm at 100 psi. NP." for the VBA.

    The only one on that page that hits 125psi is the VMA
    http://www.1ststriketech.com/Price.htm

    Sorry Mongo but this does not tell you the :Power of a stream. It only tells you the speed at which it is moving.

    If you want power or Kinetic Energy the formula is:

    Speed X Speed X Weight divided by 450,240


    OK, I know we're all just a bunch strong back weak mind firefighters. In my ignorance I thought it was obvious that if we were comparing one nozzle against another, we'd be flowing the same amount of water.

    Now we got to go and get all mathy on the situation...

    250gpm throws a weight of 2,082.5# per minute.

    Now would you agree that regardless of the nozzle it's coming out of, 250gpm has a weight of 2,082.5#?

    I thought you might.

    So:

    If I deliver 250gpm from a 1.5" tip, my pitot reads 14# (and the stream is pretty crappy).

    Now, if I deliver 250gpm through a 1.13" tip, my pitot reads 44#.

    Reader - quick - without using either formula, which stream has more power?

    Right! The 250gpm stream has more power! Oh. The one coming from the 1.13" tip.

    Now using the formula:

    1.5" tip - 45.42fps from the formula I posted and 9.54 with yours (using fps for speed).
    1.13" tip - 80.53fps from the formula I posted and 30.0 with yours (using fps for speed).

    Which one hits harder?

    Right again, the 250gpm one! You guys are sharp, can't get nuthin' past you. Oops, almost forgot the one that came racing out of the 1.13", almost twice the speed and over 3 times the power.

    We could run through the examples all day, but we'd get the same result. The same volume of water moving at a faster speed has more power.

    Its good to know because all to often people try to convince others that a fast moving stream has more punch when in fact they leave out a very important element of the equation which is mass or weight.

    Would you agree that we have demonstrated that at a known and equal volume of flow, the fast moving stream has more KE than the slow moving stream.

    You can take a slower stream with more mass and have more kinetic energy or punch than a fast moving stream that has less flow.

    Yes, but we were not, or should I say should not have been, discussing unequal flows. But since you brought it up... Can you have a fast moving lower gpm stream with more more kinetic energy or punch than a slow moving more gpm stream?

    Any chance you are Jim Cottrell or have worked with him?

    Anything's possible. But the answer to both questions is (humbly) no. Read some of his stuff though.

    Did you get my e-mail?

    Yes. Didn't you get my reply?

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 03-31-2001).]

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