**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

[mongofire_99]

The bottom line is this nozzle will gives us ALOT MORE WATER and WILL make our job a lot easier. ... Don't ask me about the numbers, because as a nozzle man that's the last thing I'm thinking about.

What size tip are you using on the 2.5"?

Please get some help with the numbers and let me know how much more water this nozzle puts out than your other 2.5" tips.

[LHS*]

They use a 1 1/8" tip.

[NUMBY]

I think the tip we are using on our 2 1/2 is also a 1 1/8, and i think it comes out to be 328 GPM. Id have to check while im at work tomorrow, but i think that is it.

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Anything I post in the forums is my opinion and does not reflect my department or any organization I belong to.

[FRED]

Mongo and S. Cook...I think there is a misunderstanding. And before I go any further, this is NOT an personal attack, just a difference of opinions.

1st We are talking about two totaly seperate subjects altogether. Defensive Ops and Offensive Ops.

I was refering to ADVANCING a 2 1/2 hose in an Offensive Aggressive Interior Attack...NOT sitting in the front lawn on a suround and drown. My comment was made affter one of you mentioned that it was a waste to have three guys on a line. Yes in a defensive attack it would be. However I think the original comment made by KEA was regarding ATTACK not Defensive ops.

I know that one or two can handle such a line while sitting on ones A**, I have done it before as I am sure you have.(no, there were no loops or coils either)Hell, I know my cousins in Junior-high could do what your picure shows!

What I am speaking of is advancing into a well advanced fire in a house, appartments, or commercial occupancy where a 1 3/4 just won' cut it.
In those cases try making a turn while flowing a 2 1/2 or advance without that "wasted" 3rd man at the corners to hump hose thru is difficult if not impossible!

Read my comment again I am speaking of needing a 3rd man to hump hose...where does one do this? Not in Defensive ops where one sits on his respective butt. A 3rd man to hump hose is needed in OFFENSIVE Ops!

That was what I was speaking of.

S. Cook your picture does show your guys doing it the hard way! From the OUTSIDE!
When in a defensive attack I don't stand either unless the situation dictates otherwise.
History and experince has shown a well positioned hoseline "advanced" on a fire will bring a swift conclusion to the incident whereas your guys sitting in the front lawn might as well dig in because they are going to be there awhile on a long drawn out operation.

Just as in war one must send in the infantry to get the job done...artillery (Ladder pipes and portable LCSs) will only do so much before they become ineffeicent. Suck it up and go inside and put the fire out! You say you have used it offensively ...however every other sentance you use is pepered with the word "sitting" You can't be on your a** and advance on fire. If you are going in on a fire that requires a 2 1/2 with the flows we are talking about, you don't have time to sit back, the structures'stability is still being comprimised by the impinging flames while you lean back on your heels! Deadly gasses are still being produced and the lives of your men and the people you are trying to save have been comprimised. This is should all be common knowledge for a fireman.

Make no mistake...sometimes we can't or shouldn't go inside but my comment was about interior attack not exterior Defensive ops.

That is my view and it is been formed by what I have been taught from experinced jakes, what I have experinced in real fires and training. It might differ from what you have done while taking picures on a nice grassy lawn but then again I'm just a fireman, what do I know?

[mongofire_99]

FRED

Here's the statement by Ind.FF/EMT as quoted by KEA:

"I have been on a 3" line with a Blitz Attack nozzle it was very impresive it took 3 of us to hold the line but we were flowing over 470 gpm (flow meter was inline).

Three people holding the line flowing 470gpm is what was claimed and what I responded too, not advancing it. Depending on the layout of the building and the position of the line, I would agree that it could take 3 or more people to move the line.

1st We are talking about two totaly seperate subjects altogether. Defensive Ops and Offensive Ops.

I was refering to ADVANCING a 2 1/2 hose in an Offensive Aggressive Interior Attack...NOT sitting in the front lawn on a suround and drown.

You can offensively operate at S. Cook described. You need more people to advance the line, but remember the original comment by Ind.FF/EMT was hold the line, which is what everyone but you was talking about.

My comment was made affter one of you mentioned that it was a waste to have three guys on a line.

That's sort of what I said. Go back and read my statement again, I said "Three seems like a lot of manpower to waste holding (there's that word again) a hose flowing 470gpm when two people....'

Yes in a defensive attack it would be. However I think the original comment made by KEA was regarding ATTACK not Defensive ops.

So we can offensively attack with a vindicator at 470gpm? And by offensive I mean move it while flowing as that's what your definition seems to be. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken on your definition.

Oh and KEA was quoting what Ind.FF/EMT said which was "it took 3 of us to hold the line", not advance it.

Tell me, who in the world is going to advance a line flowing 470gpm? You didn't claim it, Cook didn't claim it, KEA didn't claim it, Ind.FF/EMT didn't claim it, nobody has (yet).

What I am speaking of is advancing into a well advanced fire in a house, appartments, or commercial occupancy where a 1 3/4 just won' cut it.

If all you want is 250gpm (which is what you said), why not use a 1.75" or 2" at 300+gpm? Won't that cut it? After all it beats your 2.5" at 250gpm flow by 50+gpm.

In those cases try making a turn while flowing a 2 1/2 or advance without that "wasted" 3rd man at the corners to hump hose thru is difficult if not impossible!

Somebody is always needed to hump hose, may be 2nd, 3rd, 4th man. Ind.FF/EMT said took 3 of us to hold the line not advance it.

History and experince has shown a well positioned hoseline "advanced" on a fire will bring a swift conclusion to the incident whereas your guys sitting in the front lawn might as well dig in because they are going to be there awhile on a long drawn out operation.

Really? Then I guess the video of knockdown in less than 10 seconds (please correct me if I'm wrong Big Paulie) on a fully involved two story sitting on the line from the street (similar to the picture except he didn't have a backup guy) didn't really happen?

I have to give it to you though. You at least got the eggs to admit you believe that if we don't do it your way we're doing it the wrong way. And you jump into the middle of a conversation about holding a line and compare it to advancing it, screaming the whole time everybody is wrong when you yourself said "We are talking about two totaly seperate subjects altogether."

But then again, like you, I'm just a firefighter, what do I know...

[DOG 4035]

The original post for this forum was **UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator.
I'm am with the FDNY. And all I have been saying is this nozzle WORKS. I have used it in the heat of battle and it came though with flying colors. I hope we buy them soon!!!


AND I STILL DO NOT WORK OR MAKE ANY MONEY SELLING ANY FIRE PRODUCTS. BUT I STILL DO GO TO FIRES ON A REGULAR BASES AND LIKE WHAT THIS NOZZLE CAN DO FOR MY ENGINE COMPANY.



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"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog." STAY SAFE-STAY LOW

[Bobby Halton]

Hello everybody, Bobby Halton here I am enjoying your discussion and I think I can help Mongo to get more info. I will be the Dallas area next week. Mongo you have my email address if not here [email protected] I have two Vindicator Tips, I'll bring em. You try em. I feel that your posts might have more credibility after you have tried the nozzle weather you like it or not.

Dog is with the FDNY, biggest job in the world as a nozzleman and he likes it.I am with the AFD and although I am a battalion chief we are a metro sized job and my folks are happy using it. I am a huge supporter of this nozzle. I will state for the record it does not replace what you are using now. It is not the only nozzle your department should own. There are great combination, fog, automatic, smooth bore, adjustable type nozzles you can use for different fires. I will always believe "Great jobs give educated, experienced, trained firefighters the whole variety of tools and let them pick".

It is insulting the experienced line firefighters when they are told what to use. If that is happening in your job Mongo we are sorry however many places like ALB. FD and FDNY and PFD Az., Dallas FD, Huston FD, Tenafly N.J. Voll. and hundereds more trust and support ther folks on the line to use the right tip for the size and type of fire they are up against.

I am a Vindicator guy but I am a firefighter just like you brother and if you don't feel comfortable with a chief, you can met with some fellow Dallas nozzleman or Lewisville nozzleman I'm going to be staying with. I just think it will be nice to met and compare the nozzle to what ever it is you like, I can't tell by your posts. And you can't say where you are from or who you are for security reasons and I feel sorry you have to live that way. We are all on the job brother, just firefighters no political folks.

Look foward to meeting you Mongo I'll buy, you pick the resturant. Lets shoot for Wednesday or Thursday so I can have a beer. Everybody be safe be nice and have a beautiful and peacefull Passover and a beautiful Palm Sunday and Easter

As my Sainted Mother Margaret Mary Halton Always says "May the sun shine warm upon your faces, the rain fall soft on your fields, the wind be always at your back and may The Good Lord Hold you safe in the palm of His hand till next we meet. God Bless You All. Your Brother Bobby Halton


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[This message has been edited by Bobby Halton (edited 04-07-2001).]

[BIG PAULIE]

To Fred-
I respectfully would like to say that your idea of sucking it up and going in is what gets alot of us hurt and killed every year. Yes, there are times to go in, but the reasoning is not to prove how tough you are. The reason for making an interior attack should be based on risk/benefit factor. What am I to gain by going interior versus what do I potentially have to lose? Is there a benefit for going into a fully involved structure? Chances are if anyone is in there, they're dead. There is definitely no property to save if it is fully involved. It would definitely be fun and exciting. Think about it. I question your reasoning and would like to hear from you about why you claim to go interior with the 250 GPM+ flow demands with a 2-1/2". A fire requiring this much water is definitely a hot one and if it's in a residential structure such as you related to, that to me tells me that the structure is well involved to fully involved. Check out the risk factor again. I'm not saying there will never be a situation requiring your aggressive attacks, I just feel that it shouldn't happen too often and sometimes happens more than it should.
You reference a big line being deployed in the sitting position as a defensive attack. Have you every heard of a transitional attack? A transitional attack is when you start from the outside of the structure in an aggressive offensive mode knocking a fire down to a safer interior attack mode. Let's remember our main goals in doing our job are to first make sure we go home at the end of the shift to our familys and second to protect life and property.
Fred, I am interested in seeing where you work to get a better understanding of why your department makes these heavy interior attacks. I am always willing to learn new things. You did not list it in your profile.

[FRED]

Big Paulie-

My opinion is that if the nozzles being discussed can perform anywhere near what they are being advertised they will be a great tool on the rig.

I don't think our views are that far off from each others. In this medium (writen forum) the message sent doesn't always come accross the way it was intended.

That being said...I will answer your questions as best I can...
I always use the Risk/Benefit anaysis. I won't go into a fully envolved house for the same reasons you won't...there is nothing to save...the persons inside will in all likelyhood be dead. And the remainder of the structure will be demolished once the fire is out.
In that case I will put the 2 inch tip on the deck pipe and let the 1000gpm do its work for me or use it on portable base.

I beleive in a proper size-up and assesment of the situation...this shouldn't take more than a minute in most cases. After that if you don't know what you have(lots of smoke/no fire showing) or there are possible victims still in the structure and tons of fire lets say below them on a lower floor. You have no time to waste. Hesitation is what will get you killed...The longer you take to advance that hoseline the more damage will be inflicted upon the building, thus increasing the chance of collapse. Make up your mind and go with it...

I work for a Suburb FD outside a Major Midwestern City. I won't speak for the others in my dept other than many of us believe in getting in there, putting it out and going home. No reason to dick around outside if you can go in and put it out!

Our Citizens have a high level of expectation of what we do for them, and we get paid pretty good for it as well. We are paid to take risks that others won't. There are many in our community that are less fortunate than myself that have little or no belongings and no insurance. Although I might throw a smoke and water damage couch away...they can't and won't.

If there was no risk involved I imagine we wouldn't get paid anymore than a guy who works for the street dept. Because that is all we would be then...a strong back! Risk is the reason we can get better wages than a ditch digger.

I try to look at a situation as if it were my house. My daughter, My wife inside. What would I do? Being safe in my book doesn't translate into standing outside unless that is the ONLY Option! I have heard others who like to say "well it isn't our Emergency" They are right it isn't our "Emergency" It is "Our Duty" And those people didn't pay their taxes for me show up and do nothing.

Those are my views and I have found that "risk" to one dept might be common place, whereas in another such a "risk" is un-thinkable. We offten have disagreements with our nearest neighbor FDs about acceptable risk. They have called us and others Dangerous. Others usually being the other larger cities in the Metro. So it may be as simple as conflicting views on what is an acceptable risk between firemen.

Recently another shift on my dept had a fire in which the first company found heavy fire in an attached garage of 2-story single family structure. It was rapidly extending to the bedrooms above the garage. We only have 3 or 4 guys on every rig so to get the most efficent use of manpower the officer ordered that a 2 1/2 was stretched and made the hit while the next-in Company used a 1 3/4 to check for extentsion on the top floor and attic.

Some other FD' around here wouldn't enter the same building without a back-up and RIT team present on scene with charged hoselines.

That is why I advocate using the 2 1/2 with the high flows it provides when the situation calls for it.

I hope that gives you better insight as to why I have the views I do. I know sometimes I don't fully explain my views and that is my fault.

I don't want you or anyone to think that I don't respect their views, I have very firm beliefs and sometimes in my disagreement I can come off a bit rough.

Take care brother.

[This message has been edited by FRED (edited 04-07-2001).]

[LHS*]

So here we are wading into a building requiring a 450 gpm nozzle, that is a mere 1500 to 5625 square feet depending upon the fire flow formula you subscribe to.

Certainly at some point the firefighters do not belong in the building. With 1500 to 5625 square feet of involvement what are the chances the building is already falling down or the so called victims inside are already really dead? How many houses...70% of all structure fires even have rooms that size???

So would you be shocked reading that a couple firefighters died inside a 5000 square foot fully involved building doing the so called agressive interior attack??

Sure 2 or 3 guys can sit on a hose, but two to three engine companies will be need to withdrawl the line, make corsers, pull a stairway, etc. Are you willing to risk that many guys for what possible gain? To say we went in, we are more agressive than the other department or company or just for bragging rights?

What is your bench mark for exterior versus interior???

Maybe draw the line at a 1000 gpm handline or something a bit smaller?

If you can get 250 gpm out of a 2 1/2 or 250 out of a 1 3/4" line why would you ever use the larger line? Is it the hose diameter that puts ot the fire or the flow???

Amzing year 2001 and the issue of flow and line selection has not been solved after 351 years of firefighting.

[BIG PAULIE]

Fred point well taken. I would consder trying to get your 2-/2" flows from a smaller hose . Tou would be suprized how easy it will make your job. A 1-3/4" line will flow 250 gpm and a 2" line will flow 350 to 400 gpm. The trade off is higher engine pressure and a more difficult to handle nozzle reaction. Remember nozzle reaction is based on the tip size flow and nozzle pressure however the larger in diameter hose will obsorb more then the smaller. Proper hose handling techniques will make the small hose operation a piece off cake.

[mongofire_99]

LHS

Not trying to be nit-pick, but...

How many houses...70% of all structure fires even have rooms that size???

Should that be 70% of all structure fires don't even have rooms that size?

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-08-2001).]

[LHS*]

70% of all structure fires occur in houses. How many houses have rooms 1500 to 5600 square feet?

[A Lieutenant]

I have used the Vindicator at interior fires and drilled with it extensivly. It is not a smooth bore nozzle. It is a straight stream type nozzle. It does flow more water than the standard FDNY nozzle which has a 15/16"tip and is a smooth bore. It also has less nozzle reaction. However it is tip heavy and at 15" long it tends to kink slightly at the nozzle. This nozzle is also very loud as the air that it pulls in and pushes out creats a lot of noise distraction for the nozzleman. If all you hear is air movement you wont know what the stream is hitting or not hitting.The main problem with it is that it has no punch! It won't tear down a ceiling containing hidden fire. Nor will it take out windows with the stream.The stream is wide from the nozzle and when it hits distant surfaces it hits in an even wider pattern. Which lacks the force of the smaller size tip. Sure one firefighter can handle it. So What! On an 1 3/4 hose you should be able to handle that line no matter what tip/nozzle you've got.

[Jolly Roger]

Ahhh, real world experience from someone who has used it. Thanks, A Lieutenant!