**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

[LHS*]

//Larry,

Captain Reed would like to know who your working with in Houston.

Tell him Chris Conneally, he holds the title of Fire Chief. I've also worked with all the exectutive chiefs, mayor and city staff. I know exactly what is going on and the funding sources available to the FD. I know what changes have been made to the specs, witnessed the acceptance and know the training program required on all equipment.

[KEA]

Larry:

Thanks, I will pass it on.

/know the training program required on all equipment/

What is the training required on Vindicators?



------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS*]

//What is the training required on Vindicators?

After all this gobbly gook about the importance of training with your nozzles and you don't know? Geesh.

[KEA]

Lets not worry about what I know. You said you know so please share it with the rest of us.

Thank you.

------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[KEA]

Mongo:
I think I would have to agree with ADSN/WFLD
as to the start of this post which is starting from the TOP of the post:

"It appears the FDNY testing of the Vindicator nozzle is going well. As you see in this picture of a 7 Alarm fire.Check out the photo page http://fdnyphoto.com/ that ain't no straight tip in his hands."

The listing of who may or may not be using the nozzle comes after the fact.

I do appreciate you question to IndFF/EMT about his posts. I have always pushed for accountablility. His response will be interesting.

While were keeping everyone accountable, what department are you with?

Why will you not provide your name in an email?

Do you sell nozzles, not that I care.....unless your good at what you do. We always keep our eyes open for potential reps

I, like LHS has expressed in pasts posts, like to know who is participating in these conversations.

Thanks


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[KEA]

Mongo: This could get real interesting. I found this post from INDff/emt.

I have been on a 3" line with a Blitz Attack nozzle it was very impresive it took 3 of us to hold the line but we were flowing over 470 gpm (flow meter was inline).

I'm as curious about the posts as you are!


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[mongofire_99]

While were keeping everyone accountable, what department are you with?

Why will you not provide your name in an email?

I prefer to remain anonymous for personal and professional reasons and it has been my experience that the only way two people can keep a confidence is if one of them is dead.

Do you sell nozzles, not that I care.....unless your good at what you do. We always keep our eyes open for potential reps

Naw. All I sell are Girl Scout cookies and Little League fundraiser candy bars (Butterfinger and Baby Ruths are the best bargain) when it's that time of the year. But if you ever switch to a signup/order sheet and a money envelope that I could just leave on the station table, I could probably help you out.

Anyway to be brutally blunt, I wouldn't sell any product without first have a few years of heavy experience actually using it. I love it when sales reps that have only used a product in a demo and been to the factory school drop by to show us the latest gizmo with a widget on the end (even though I'll have little or no say in what a waste of money it might be). A couple of things in this life I don't want to be:

A) The rep that has only used a product in a demo and been to the factory school and has come and see me.

B) The rep that has little or no actual real experience with a product and then be successful selling it only to find out later it's a POJ.

Of course if Bubba's right about reincarnation, I'll come back as a wet nose liberal democrat sales rep with no experience. (Lucky for me she's not.)

Now with all that in mind, what kind of salary would I get?...

I, like LHS has expressed in pasts posts, like to know who is participating in these conversations.

I can appreciate that and if it's a problem for you guys then it's a problem for you. Feel free to handle it as you feel is necessary.

This could get real interesting. I found this post from INDff/emt.

I have been on a 3" line with a Blitz Attack nozzle it was very impresive it took 3 of us to hold the line but we were flowing over 470 gpm (flow meter was inline).

Yeah I agree. Three seems like a lot of manpower to waste holding a hose flowing 470gpm when two people, or one big fella, can sit on it and do just fine. Wonder why they need three? Wheaties or Met-Rx could probably fix 'em up.

[Ind.FF/EMT]

Mongo, your good.

BUSTED..........NOT!

I'm sorry for the confusion. I just moved back to Indiana and my current department does not have Vindicators. The job I was on in West Virginia did have them for about 3 weeks prior to me moving back to Indiana shortly after the first of the year. That is why I said it works for us. We did have the opportunity to use the nozzle twice but only one time was I their, I had to take the work of some of my other FF that did use it. So when I said it works for us I guess I should have used it in past tense. As for seeing a demo by the Vindicator guys in WV I was out of town delivering and ambulance and missed it. My chief (In Indiana) is looking into a demo for my department at this time. I am sorry for the confusion I will be more accurate next time. If their are any more questions about this issue please let me know.

[KEA]

Mongo:
/Of course if Bubba's right about reincarnation, I'll come back as a wet nose liberal democrat sales rep with no experience. (Lucky for me she's not.)/

Amen

[FRED]

I have one observation regarding a comment made.

"Yeah I agree. Three seems like a lot of manpower to waste holding a hose flowing 470gpm when two people, or one big fella, can sit on it and do just fine. Wonder why they need three? Wheaties or Met-Rx could probably fix 'em up."

It appears you have never used a 2 1/2" for fire attack. Do you only pull the big lines when you are going to go defensive? The standard 1 1/8 tip smoothbore will give you 250+ gpm @ 50 psi NP and approx 95lbs. reaction force.
To get the same 400+ flow using smoothbores it would take 2 hoselines using 2 guys at each nozzle. (not to mention at at least 1 guy per line humping line) total=6

If 3 guys are holding a stream at over 400 gpm that would be excellent. However I would have to do it for myself.

Two cents from a fireman.

[S. Cook]

So if you're not using 3 people on the 2-1/2" you're doing it wrong? That's good to know! Especially since 2 of our littlest can do it.

These two guys will be glad to know they really can't do what we do all the time. 450+ gpm, BP nozzle...



How easy is it - the guy in back is an ***. Chief, that's how easy. He's weighs a buck and a quarter soaking wet, guy on the tip weighs about 175#.

Kind of like the 4 minute mile or breaking the sound barrier isn't it? It's impossible until somebody does it then everytbody's doing it... (and the line is not looped, that's 200' of 5" LDH running from our turbo draft)

"It appears you have never used a 2 1/2" for fire attack."

Really. Just because we don't do it the hard way? We'll pull it offensive too. Pull it, set it, knock down, shut it down, move it, set it, knock it down... Once the smaller lines will handle it, we switch to them. Be realistic, nobody is going to move a line while it's flowing 400+ anyway.

So you want to do it yourself? There's the pic to show you how...

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited 04-03-2001).]

[BIG PAULIE]

I know this is kinda moving away from the original topic but it is a good discussion so here I go. I have found through my 20 career that when a 2-1/2" line is put into service for offensive or defensive attack the guys usually try to muscle it standing up.WHY???just sit on the dam thing and let good old mother earth eat up the nozzle reaction. She is a lot bigger then we are. EXAMPLE. If I read it correctly , Mongo was talking about two firemen handleing a 2-1/2" at 250 gpm. I am a 5'7" 180 pound guy and can handle a 2-1/2"flowing 350 to 400 gpm by myself sitting on it with the proper techniques. And that is with a standard nozzle . With the Vindicator beign able to get the same flows with a reduced nozzle reaction ( I am not sure how much)well then all the more easier.

[BIG PAULIE]

Hey Mongo, sorry, I miss read your post on the 2-1/2" PLEASE DISREGARD MY MY REFERENCE TO YOU IN MY LAST POST.

[mongofire_99]

Ind.FF/EMT

I figured it was something like that........

FRED

It appears you have never used a 2 1/2" for fire attack.

Why does it appear thay way? Because we don't do it like you guys do? I wonder what else we've never used in a fire attack?

Do you only pull the big lines when you are going to go defensive?

We pull it when the situation calls for it.

To get the same 400+ flow using smoothbores it would take 2 hoselines using 2 guys at each nozzle.

Or, you could use one guy Paulie's size at each nozzle or if you want to just use one line and kick up the psi and/or change the tip size:

1.13" @ 114psi = 401gpm (yeah I know, it's not realistic)
1.25" @ 75psi = 402gpm
1.38" @ 55psi = 417gpm
1.50" @ 36psi = 401gpm

If 3 guys are holding a stream at over 400 gpm that would be excellent. However I would have to do it for myself.

Now that you've heard how one guy can do it and can see how 2 guys do it, try it and let us know how it worked for you.

S. Cook

There's the pic to show you how...

Thanks for posting the pic. Not a lot of 'splaining is needed with that.

BIG PAULIE

I am a 5'7" 180 pound guy and can handle a 2-1/2"flowing 350 to 400 gpm by myself sitting on it with the proper techniques.

Which do you prefer, Wheaties, Met-Rx or maybe something different ?

And no sweat on the misread.

KEA

What's the patent number for the vindicator?

[DOG 4035]

Where I work we pull a 2 1/2 handline about 3/4 of the time.(as an ATTACK line) We use it mostly in hi-rise multiple dwellings, off a standpipe. The bottom line is this nozzle will gives us ALOT MORE WATER and WILL make our job a lot easier. Which in the long run will save lives and property. Don't ask me about the numbers, because as a nozzle man that's the last thing I'm thinking about. All I know is this nozzle works.

AND I DO NOT WORK OR MAKE ANY MONEY SELLING ANY FIRE PRODUCTS. BUT I DO GO TO FIRES ON A REGULAR BASES AND LIKE WHAT THIS NOZZLE CAN DO FOR MY ENGINE COMPANY.

------------------
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog." STAY SAFE-STAY LOW