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**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

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  • #31
    Hi Everyone, I am Bobby Halton a battalion chief for the City of Albuquerque Fire Department and a "Vindicator guy". I am not a great Techno type and I also don't feel very comfortable in confrontational environments so I apologize upfront for not attacking anyone. And am saddened that others have been angered by their names appearing in this post. Please accept my condolences for your discomfort.

    If I could reference Mongos point and agree with him that good fire service organizations allow the troops to decide what tip to take into a fire. I would also like to mention again where I work is "B" shift third battalion Albuquerque New Mexico. Here our Engine 5 and Engine 8 who are our busiest and our most seasoned respectfully, have done a one year evaluation on the Vindicator and recommended we put one 1 3/4" on one of our three preconnects on every engine next to our SM20's and our TFT's. They also recommended we put a 2 1/2 Vindicator on our blitz attack line. We also are purchasing 15/16" and 7/8" smooth bores for the the officers to use at their discretion. Our members at these houses sit on our Safety and Deployment committees.

    Our process is to allow the users to determine the products for purchase through these committees. Not "guys in the clouds". We always try to get the Reps to meet with these teams and I must say TFT Elkhart Vindicator and Akron have always been very accomidating in allowing us to use, abuse and generally beat the daylights out of their stuff. We are very fortunate to have some great reps in our area. And they all represent great products. They are all different they all work well and we belive "use the right tool at the right time"

    I have invited Mongo to come to our department and visit. I hope wherever he is on the job might they be willing to look at how we do business. We believe the American Fire Service has some of the best equipment ever to pick from and our members on the job have the training, experience and wisdom to pick the right nozzle for the right job. It would be silly to expect any nozzle to be the right nozzle for every fire. We enjoy using combination nozzles, smooth bores and Vindicators. We try to provide the best equipment and training so our crews can pick what tool to take in.

    We are a Metro-size job and we fight a good amount of fires. We have officers and crews who prefer TFT some who prefer Akron, Elkhart and some who prefer the vindicators. I hope we always can provide them all what they feel most comfortable and always allow them the opportunity to try something new.

    The American Firefighter is the best firefighter in the world and will always be model people hold up to their children as an example of decency. I hope we can get back on track with our discussion and keep the insults and hostilities to private emails.

    If I have offended anyone I apologize here and now completely and sincerely. I am an open supporter of the Vindicator and combination nozzles and smooth bores and haligan tools and rabbit tools and thermal imaging cameras. I am sorry that hand tools can cause people to react so intensely.

    Please feel free to contact me at my e-mail address. Be safe, stay low and most importantly BE NICE TO ONE ANOTHER. Until we meet again may the the Good Lord hold you all and all those you love safe in the palm of His loving hand.
    Fraternally your brother Bobby Halton
    These opinions are mime and mine alone thanks for your taking the time to read and share. Bobby

    [This message has been edited by Bobby Halton (edited 04-01-2001).]


    • #32
      I would like to respond but first I want you and everyone else to know, my responses are with a smile and not intended to start an argument or create a disterbance in the Force.

      Larry, I always welcome your input. It always brings glowing lights of awarness to the readers! If my statement was incoreect that your freinds with the onwers of TFT I stand corrected. If you took that statement as an implication that you have a "relationship" with them in a business sense I'm sorry. That is not what was said or meant.

      /Looks like TFT's are 4 to 1 on every engine./

      I couldnt tell you what the ratio is Larry but if thats what it is great! They bought One Vindicator for each of the new engines just like I stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

      /I think if there were ever more actually in use and not sitting in a compartment the letter in the union paper about the nozzle probably killed it./

      I must admit some confusion on your support of that letter though. The author cleary states that "I do not doubt the nozzles ability to flow 250-gpm" and then goes on to state that he has run out of water prior to a supply line being established. Sounds like a training issue more than a flow problem. However in all due respect to those who want less water on their initial attack line, don't pick the Vindicator.

      If they are happier with less water from the nozzles they are using then great. That is their choice and I respect that.

      /The 10 newest rigs were delivered to the companies after training with the nozzles still in plastic in a compartment./

      If they were still packaged can we agree the training you claim they recieved did not include the nozzle? If so great. I would not want to use a nozzle without being trained either.

      /I've been on numerous multi-alarm structure fires and have yet to see one in use./

      I guess you havent been with the engine companies that have been trained and are using it. Sorry. Give Station 68 a call. I'm sure they would let you ride along. Or better yet, Call Captain Mendall who is one of the Safety Officers in Houston. I know he has used it many times.

      /Contact houston IAFF and ask for the letter that appeared in their paper./

      The address is:
      Houston Fire Fighter
      1907 Freeman Street
      Houston, TX 77009

      The letter speaks volumes to many issues of which Larry under any other situation I believe that you would say are training related. I hope everyone gets a copy so they can read for themselves and better understand the real situation. A quote from the author: "I request further testing and evaluation of the Vindicator - hose combination with at least some type of formal training". Wow, didn't I mention its a training issue? I also have flow results from Station 8 that dispute the authors friction loss numbers used to support a position against high flows for those who would like a copy.

      /Flows the same as a smothbore tip at similar pressures nd a low pressure fog./

      Thanks Larry Wow, we have moved up in the world. Past posts you stated that the smooth bore kicked our tail. I love improvement.

      /Why did the Elkhart and Akron guys sit in my class at FAMA and ask me for info??/

      I would assume because they believed you knew something they did not, but if you really want to know, I'm not the one to ask.

      /If you've got something to say, say it./

      I'm not sure what you mean?

      /Why is it the Houston guys who are officers in volunteer departments keep buying Akron turbojets with their own money and not the nozzles on their pumpers at work???/

      I think they would be the ones to ask but since you brought it up, are you implying that they like the Akrons better than their TFT nozzles? I didn't mention Vindicators because you imply they are not being used anyway.

      /Why does Akron want to pay me for nozzle info? /

      Thats a great question

      /Are they stupid, or no normal firefighter can figure out what works for himself without having the propaganda minister there???/

      Who is "they"?

      /Propaganda Minister/

      Thanks Larry! I can take it
      Any one who has ever attended our presentation knows that there is no propaganda.

      Considering you have so much experience with our product Larry could you tell me what the purpose of the internal fins are and why they are milled to a specific angle and its relationship to fire suppression?

      /And we all know how accurate flow meters are!/

      Even if they are not accurate, which comes from not calibrating them, their use provides a relative comparison that is very important and valuable.

      If the flow is off, it will be off for everythnig thus still showing the difference.

      Larry I'm sorry that my mentioning your freindship with TFT was taken as dragging you into this discussion. I truly apoligize for that. It was not intended to imply anything more. You have been true to form and your continued brow beating of me and our product are welcomed. I dont think I could buy this type of advertising!

      In closing I would like to say thanks to all who have been so supportive over the years. We have done our best to build our business on a rock and are confident that the foundation that has been laid will last for quite some time.

      God Bless and Stay Safe!

      Kirk Allen
      First Strike Technologies, Inc

      [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]

      [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]


      • #33
        fyred. Boy I leave town for 2 days and all hell breaks loose. When I left there were 2 hits on this discusson. Anyway fyred up what are you talking about? You said that I continue to slam this product when this is my first reply to this post. Check it out your self. First off Larry has been a friend of mine and will continue to be but I don't support his way of discussion in the forums. Second Yes I did initially not think to much of the Vindicator but have since done some research and had some talk with Kirk and will be persuing training with the Vindicator boys to learn more. I know for a fact that they are getting the flows they say they are. I am pretty sure that the nozzle reaction is lower then most if not all nozzles at the same flows however I don't quite understand how that is accomplished. So I will go to school and learn.


        • #34
          Kirk explained the nozzle reaction to me as this.

          Water travels through, and in fact exits, the nozzle at a slight angle to the centerline of the nozzle, i believe 17+/- degrees. So the nozzle reaction is actually NR*cos(theta), approximately a 5% reduction over a smoothbore at the same flow and np. This is similar to a fog nozzle operated a narrow fog, except that instead of creating a diverging fog pattern, the stream is "straightened" by the action of the entrained air. Additionallly, though I'm not sure, the design of the nozzle may allow a decent stream to be made a lower nozzle pressures than conventional nozzles.

          Kirk, please correct me if I'm wrong.


          • #35
            I would like to know where this hatred for the Vindicator came from. Larry, did you loose a building because the Vindicator didn't flow as much as is was supposed to? NO Did people die because a booster line fire couldn't be extinguished by the vindicator? NO. Do you have some personal experience that makes you feel that the Vindicator is dangerous to use? NO.
            Their is no one product, except for the halligan perhaps, that every firefighter likes.
            I wouldn't force a firefighter who was unfamiliar with the vindicator to use it. Even though I prefer it.
            I've been on fires where a TFT nozzle was used and WOW the fire went out. If I could do the same fire again I would prefer to use the vindicator, or a 15/16 solid stream, or a SM20, or the elkhart chief. Actually I prefer just about any nozzle over the TFT. It doesn't mean that it can't do the job, I just don't like it. For me A TFT is cumbersome, heavy, and has a disproportionately high nozzle reaction. It may be the nozzles design, or the shutoff, or the pistol grip. My point is that I have experience with the TFT and that experience has lead to my dislike of that nozzle. I also have experience with the vindicator and that experience has lead to my preference with it.
            IndFF I would like to also hear more stories about the vindicator in use. Good or bad. Almost none of us go to enough fires to really see any of our tools in all of the situations that we may face, so we need to hear the good and bad from people who have some different experiences than us.
            I hope to hear from some of you, on this post, who have used the vindicator at actual incidents.


            • #36

              I think every nozzle is putting out fires somewhere. Obviously flows of 95 to 150 are more common than anything else. Sure high flow can in some cases put a fire out quicker. Statements that in just seconds a room was out are nothing special it happens everyday with every nozzle somewhere. Now does it make sense to spend $500 bucks for a new nozzle when the old nozzle is doing just fine or is that alleged 1 or 2 seconds everything? When the nozzle you already own can flow more with lower reaction would you still change nozzles? There is nothing wrong with todays or yesterdays nozzles. There is a big push to get you dump perfectly good nozzles by the nozzle guys though.

              If I take on a bedroom at 500 gpm, 300 gpm or 60 gpm it goes out doesn't it??


              //I must admit some confusion on your support of that letter though.

              My support huh? Sir I stated the fact that a union member of their department wrote about the nozzle, that holds a lot of weight with union members.

              Oh, you know the letter says a lot more than he ran out of water.

              //If they are happier with less water from the nozzles they are using then great. That is their choice and I respect that.

              Actually they flow the same or more with their other nozzles.

              //I would not want to use a nozzle without being trained either.

              They were trained, they simply chose not to use the odd ball nozzle.

              //I guess you havent been with the engine companies that have been trained and are using it.

              Untrue, Houston doesn’t put the rigs out in the street until the crews have been trained. You nozzle was sitting in the compartment by choice.

              So as you can clearly see, they are not on use on 85 houston engines, they are carried but hardly used. Oh, they carry hose jackets on all 85 rigs too and they never use those either.

              //could you tell me what the purpose of the internal fins are and why they are milled to a specific angle and its relationship to fire suppression?


              //You have been true to form and your continued brow beating of me and our product are welcomed

              Gee if you making a bunch of claims on use by a customer and my refuting them with facts are a brow beating?? You want to use the excuse that funding is the reason HFD doesn’t buy your nozzle in quantity, bull! They don’t want your nozzle, if they did they’d buy it 5 to 1 instead of 1 to 5 wouldn’t they??? It is simply an experiment of one per rig on new apparatus only not a departmental change out. You state the only ones not using them have not been trained. That is a another pile of bull.

              Oh if the best you can do to build you product up is to say, “Everyone knows he is very close friends with..“ It must not be very good.

              I also like the comment by you that unless you’ve had a presentation you couldn’t possibly use or understand the nozzle. If that is the case, how many of the nations fire service do you intend on ever reaching and when??? Seems to me the stream and flow do the talking for any nozzle.

              85 rigs and you can only name one with a nozzle on a preconnect????


              [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-02-2001).]


              • #37
                "Seems to me the stream and flow do the talking for any nozzle." Absolutely correct. While I never met Kirk, one of his salesman presented the vindicator to my full time department and I have to say that the time spent in drill was defiantly worth it.
                Training is the key to understanding the vindicator or any automatic for that matter. If you give a department an automatic without adequate training, their is little to no chance that they will be flowing what they think they are.
                The training for the vindicator proves that the nozzle does what it claims. Since the nozzle reaction is so low and the nozzle is so easy to control it is hard to believe that it flows what it does.
                The training course may also reveal some problems with your engine that could prevent you from flowing what you want on any nozzle.
                While it's nice to know that bigger, busier departments are using the vindicator you should really see it for yourself.
                Just guessing, but the reason that some rigs only have one vindicator is because you only need one vindicator to put out a large amount of fire.


                • #38
                  Just wanted to clarify something. When we tested nozzles, it was for reaction only. We had previously been working on a plan to purchase several apparatus but at the time we were doing the nozzle testing the apparatus purchase had been shot down. A few months later, a new county government and it was approved. I guess you never know what's going to happen next...

                  With that in mind, we'd be happy to do the entire reaction comparison again, we still have the test stand. We'll do all the nozzles that can be brought in and set the test up just as you'd like. We'll even pitot the fogs this time to ensure that we get their calculated reaction in addition to the measured one.

                  And I have no doubt that your nozzles will flow their associated published flows, that's ever been in question by anyone.

                  FyredUp, you still haven't told us why your department hasn't bought any Vindicators? What's the hold up?

                  Larry and Paul I apologize that our relationship got you drug into this mess.

                  Sta. 2, they were out everytime I called so imagined they stayed pretty busy. Plus I hear Reed is one of the go-to guys so it figures he wouldn't be at the ROAD station.


                  • #39
                    Can one Vindicator put out more fire at 500gpm than any other smoothbore or fog nozzle? Has someone figured out a way to make 1 gallon of water absorb more BTUs than another gallon of water?


                    • #40

                      //If you give a department an automatic without adequate training, their is little to no chance that they will be flowing what they think they are.

                      Gee if they didn’t have any training how would they know what they were flowing.

                      Why would they even care??

                      If there wasn’t enough water flowing, like anyone else they’d ask for more pressure.

                      Let’s say the chief bought the nozzles. He doesn’t teach anyone squat. He tells the guys pump 200 psi or you are suspended. Odds are they are flowing plenty.

                      //While it's nice to know that bigger, busier departments are using the vindicator

                      Like who????

                      //Just guessing, but the reason that some rigs only have one vindicator is because you only need one vindicator to put out a large amount of fire.

                      No, not really, they have one nozzle attached to all their lines and a vindicator stuffed in a compartment. It must be a heck of a tip to work in a compartment.

                      What a concept though! Just own one nozzle and one attack line. Utopia!


                      • #41
                        Thank you for your Post. Rest assured this is not personal for me Larry nor will I let it get to that point. I will never sacrifice a relationship for an outcome!

                        Like I stated before, I would encourage everyone to get a copy of the letter.

                        Larry, I have NEVER lied on these posts regarding any subject. I'm sorry that you now choose to attack my integraty but again, I can take it.

                        May God Bless You and keep you safe and out of harms way!

                        Kirk Allen
                        First Strike Technologies, Inc


                        • #42
                          I've not seen this nozzle myself but for it to be causing such a stir I'm betting there's validity to it. It appears LHS may blow a blood vessel over this nozzle. It's pretty amusing to see a grown man so emotional.


                          • #43
                            Larry, "Just guessing...amount of fire."

                            That was a joke, lighten up.

                            You can argue with Kirk about who likes the vindicator and who doesn't but the picture that started all of this shows FDNY USING a vindicator. I'm sure that the people suffering fire loss don't care if it is a trial or the regular equipment. As long as it puts the fire out, and it does.


                            • #44
                              For those interested in gathering first hand information the following is provided with permission.

                              Captain Mendal - Safety 2 - C shift
                              Houston Fire Department
                              Station 2 - 713-997-4393 or 4394

                              Capatain Cliff Reed
                              Safety Committee Houston Fire Department
                              House Captain - Station 68
                              713-777-1085 WK
                              281-568-5532 HP

                              Larry, if you would be so kind, give them a call. Captain Reed would like to know who your working with in Houston. He is not online so he is unable to participate in this great debat.

                              Thanks Everyone for being so patient

                              Kirk Allen
                              First Strike Technologies, Inc


                              • #45

                                Been doing a little rersearch and guess what I've found...


                                You said...

                                "Maybe it time for my department to evaluate this new nozzle?'

                                Then you were asked outright if you worked in any way for 1st Strike/Vindicator and you said no and went on to add:

                                If what I posted came across as a sales pitch to you I'm sorry. I personally like the product but our department still does not have them. If my sharing this information would move our department to a point of evaluating the product it would be a good thing. So I guess your partially right, the sales pitch was in hopes that members of my own department would take enough interest because of others use of the nozzle that maybe they would evaluate it.

                                However, on 03/01/01 on the TFT Blitzfire forum you said the following:

                                If your after max flow why not use a Vindicator Blitz Attack nozzle on a 2 1/2 attack line? It will do the 500 GPM and the warranty is not void if you go over?
                                Just an Idea, It works for us.

                                Now you may not work for 1st Strike, I don't really care. But I ask you, which one of the above statements you made is the truth?


                                but the picture that started all of this shows FDNY USING a vindicator

                                Not quite correct, it was started from a post that said "FDNY, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Albuquerque, Columbus..." leading us to believe they are all using them and then the poster said "Maybe it time for my department to evaluate this new nozzle?' when he previously stated he has at least one in service.

                                Things that make you go hmmmm...


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