**UPDATE**FDNY and the Vindicator

[KEA]

Mongo:
/Being fair, the Vindicator crowd has the same old tired comments./

Couldnt agree with you more! Whats interesting is the fact that those comments from users has been nothing but positive. I know from experience that when everything you hear is positive there comes a point where people become on a mission to shoot it down for any little reason possible and in most cases without any foundation of testing.

The negatives I continue to hear are from certain competitors and their friends, those who have never had a presentation, and/or those who have never tested or used the nozzle under any fire conditions.

Its just like any other product, over time you will have some who support it and others who do not. For those who support it, Great. For those who do not, Great.

Thats what makes this country so great and worth fighting for! The right to voice our opinion openly and equally!

God Bless America!

Stay Safe,


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited 03-31-2001).]

[ignition_point]

Mongofire99:

I don't mean this as an insult, but do you know what I mean by nozzle reaction? I don't mean the direction that the nozzle goes nessecerly, but the opposing force it puts on the nozzleman and his backup. Just being comparative, between a combintation nozzle and a vinditcator, both on a 1-3/4" line both running around 150psi... The vindicator is *much* easy to control, it has quite a bit less "recoil" compared to the combination nozzle, and it's flowing more GPM's at the same pressure.

Again, I don't want to come across as sounded like I'm trying to insult you. I do agree, and should have better implied, that the nozzle isn't here to replace everything we have, it's just as you had said, another tool to add to our assortment to aid us in our job.

[mongofire_99]

I don't mean this as an insult, but do you know what I mean by nozzle reaction?

Not insulted, but obviously you mean something different than what I understand you to mean.

both on a 1-3/4" line both running around 150psi...

Pump pressure? Pitot exit pressure? Or nozzle inlet pressure? If it's nozzle inlet pressure, you seem to be violating 1st Strikes recommendation (from their web site) of 100psi max on the VLA, VBA and VHA.

Too many variables left unsaid.

What kind of nozzle were you comparing the Vindicator too? A 1970 Select-o-Matic, a 2001 TFT Maxi Force?

Has it been serviced and what kind of shape is it in?

What is the discharge orifice diameter of it?

What model of Vindicator were you using?

What brand/style of hose were you using?

100' lengths, 50' lengths?

All of these and more can/do make a huge difference.

How do the low pressure fogs stand up to what you're looking for.

Do you need a variable fog pattern on your nozzle (you did mention hydraulic ventilation)?

How about smooth bores?

If you haven't tested/evaluated these situations, unless your heart is set on getting the Vindicator it seems you may have a lot more testing/evaluation to do.

...and it's flowing more GPM's at the same pressure.

It should, just like a smooth bore it has a larger discharge opening and requires less force push water out. Compare it to a low pressure combo of the same flow rate. All mfgs make one.

3 ways to determine nozzle reaction...

1) purely subjective, but important - ask the FF how it feels.

2) Measure it on a scale - for example set up a ground set pointing straight up on a scale, add the nozzle and tare it off to zero and flow water. Read the scale.

3) Math, a pitot and a calculator:

For fog nozzles, pitot the stream about a foot or two into it (where it's compact/tighest) and use the following formula:

0.0505Q X sq. rt. of NP

Q=flow in gpm
NP=nozzle exit pressure

Smooth bore formula

NR=1.57 X (DXD) X NP

NR = nozzle reaction
D = nozzle Diameter
NP = nozzle exit pressure

Here's something really fun to know - the power of the stream?

V = sq.rt. NP X 12.14

V = velocity in feet per second
NP = nozzle exit pressure
(12.14 is a constant)

Look, it doesn't matter to me what nozzle you use. Just have all the facts, make a sound decision and be able to support it when the questions start flying, because they will.

If you run through all of this and find a Vindicator is right for your department, that's fine with me. Unfortunately those of us on the line seldom get that chance. It comes down from the mountain tops (insert clouds of fog and a booming voice) "here, we're switching from this to this" (doesn't matter what it is, boots, helmets, haligans, saws, jaws, nozzles, hose...) is generally what we get. (If you're a chief or other departmental guru that does this, you should let the guys and gals on the line decide.)

[mongofire_99]

Is it just me or am I long winded?....

[KEA]

Mongo:
/if it's nozzle inlet pressure, you seem to be violating 1st Strikes recommendation (from their web site) of 100psi max on the VLA, VBA and VHA./

I dont recall anywhere on our site that discusses a max pressure. This page should clear up you confusion.
http://www.1ststriketech.com/Features.htm

/Here's something really fun to know - the power of the stream?

V = sq.rt. NP X 12.14

V = velocity in feet per second
NP = nozzle exit pressure
(12.14 is a constant)/

Sorry Mongo but this does not tell you the :Power of a stream. It only tells you the speed at which it is moving.

If you want power or Kinetic Energy the formula is:

Speed X Speed X Weight divided by 450,240

Its good to know because all to often people try to convince others that a fast moving stream has more punch when in fact they leave out a very important element of the equation which is mass or weight.

You can take a slower stream with more mass and have more kinetic energy or punch than a fast moving stream that has less flow.

Im not sure which post this was discussed on in the past but numerous examples confirmed this fact of physics.

Any chance you are Jim Cottrell or have worked with him?

Just curious.

Did you get my e-mail?


Stay Safe


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[S. Cook]

I apologize Kirk, I didn't know the firefighters on the line that I've spoken to that have one of your nozzles on their apparatus didn't know they were on the preconnects and not stored in a compartment (and no, I haven't talked to every firefighter that has used your nozzle either). By the way, I called Reed a couple of times during our last discourse on this subject. He was out each time and I left a message the first time I called (didn't get a return call, maybe he didn't get the message - no blame). And a buddy of mine has been trying to get me to call Anderson at Dallas, and get your nozzle from him to eval for the last few months, but in fairness to you I won't (unless you post or email me your permission for him to let me take one for a few days). I figured I'd just wait until you came back to this area and I'd attend a demo.

Either way, as in all situations, I would still get the opinion of the guys that are using it, both pro and con (there have been some pros). I can get the gist of Reeds and Andersons opinions from 2 places, you or them (it wouldn't be in your best business interest for you to provide a reference that didn't support/endorse your product) but if I were to do an eval, I would speak to them. I can only get the opinions of those that actually use it straight from the source. And as I've said before, I would still do my own evaluation (user comments would be given consideration).

You tell us that the negatives you hear are only from certain competitors or their friends, yet Larry is not a competitor and although he's a friend of Shapiro and Shapiro sells a nozzle, he's posted how to build his yourself on occassions in these forums - http://www.firehouse.com/forums/Foru.../001745-2.html . I'd hardly call that competition.

I know it's not a combo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a nutshell isn't it essentially a smooth bore with some aspirating holes and a stream shaper downstream of the nozzle discharge? My point is/was it's more a smooth bore than a fog and to compare apples to apples. I didn't slam or otherwise knock your nozzle, just asked for an apples to apples comparison from someone that claimed your nozzle had a lower reaction than a nozzle that by design should have a higher reaction.

By the way, have you let Paul test your nozzle?

Ind.FF/EMT we haven't evaluated it, Kirk chose not to let us evaluate his nozzle for business reasons. That's ashamed too, we just spent close to $60,000 on nozzles for 10 new apparatus. Had we evaluated it and found it to be something we could use, we would have bought some. Have you had the opportunity to evaluate it?

FyredUp I don't know why no one asks Larry or Paul, just why I don't ask. Have you asked?

As has been stated before, it matters not to me what nozzle you decide to use as long as it performs too or above your expectations. Be sure you evaluate the nozzles in the environment and set up you will be using them in, that means off the discharges you'll have the nozzle on, with the hose you use and the lengths of lines you use and compare apples to apples.

And when you do an eval, eval them all. Nozzle reps have trucks loaded with all of their nozzles that they will bring to you, you can have a look and flow water through everyone of them and decide what's best.

And a question I was hit with the other day maybe you can answer Kirk.

If a Vindicator gets dropped and the end gets knocked out of round, what would that do to the pattern or the nozzles effectiveness?

And then they wonder if a replacement end costs the same as a new nozzle? (should you feel you shouldn't answer this as the policy of the forums, I can respect that).

[mongofire_99]

I dont recall anywhere on our site that discusses a max pressure. This page should clear up you confusion. http://www.1ststriketech.com/Features.htm

Well, it didn't...

If I may quote from the 4th paragraph on the referenced page:

"It can operate as low as 25psi or as high as 125psi."

I would think that "as high as" means max although it doesn't specifically state "max".

The pressure I posted was taken from your products page where it says:

"90-200 gpm for standard hand line operations. For use on 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" hose. Capable of 95 gpm at 50 psi. NP and 200 gpm at 100psi. NP." for the VLA;

"175-425 gpm for heavy hand line attack units. Capable of 250 gpm at 50 psi. NP through 1 3/4" hose and 425 gpm at 100 psi. NP through 2 1/2" hose." for the VHA;

"250-500 gpm for 2 1/2" hand lines. Capable of 325 gpm at 50 psi. NP through 2 1/2" hose and 500 gpm at 100 psi. NP." for the VBA.

The only one on that page that hits 125psi is the VMA
http://www.1ststriketech.com/Price.htm

Sorry Mongo but this does not tell you the :Power of a stream. It only tells you the speed at which it is moving.

If you want power or Kinetic Energy the formula is:

Speed X Speed X Weight divided by 450,240

OK, I know we're all just a bunch strong back weak mind firefighters. In my ignorance I thought it was obvious that if we were comparing one nozzle against another, we'd be flowing the same amount of water.

Now we got to go and get all mathy on the situation...

250gpm throws a weight of 2,082.5# per minute.

Now would you agree that regardless of the nozzle it's coming out of, 250gpm has a weight of 2,082.5#?

I thought you might.

So:

If I deliver 250gpm from a 1.5" tip, my pitot reads 14# (and the stream is pretty crappy).

Now, if I deliver 250gpm through a 1.13" tip, my pitot reads 44#.

Reader - quick - without using either formula, which stream has more power?

Right! The 250gpm stream has more power! Oh. The one coming from the 1.13" tip.

Now using the formula:

1.5" tip - 45.42fps from the formula I posted and 9.54 with yours (using fps for speed).
1.13" tip - 80.53fps from the formula I posted and 30.0 with yours (using fps for speed).

Which one hits harder?

Right again, the 250gpm one! You guys are sharp, can't get nuthin' past you. Oops, almost forgot the one that came racing out of the 1.13", almost twice the speed and over 3 times the power.

We could run through the examples all day, but we'd get the same result. The same volume of water moving at a faster speed has more power.

Its good to know because all to often people try to convince others that a fast moving stream has more punch when in fact they leave out a very important element of the equation which is mass or weight.

Would you agree that we have demonstrated that at a known and equal volume of flow, the fast moving stream has more KE than the slow moving stream.

You can take a slower stream with more mass and have more kinetic energy or punch than a fast moving stream that has less flow.

Yes, but we were not, or should I say should not have been, discussing unequal flows. But since you brought it up... Can you have a fast moving lower gpm stream with more more kinetic energy or punch than a slow moving more gpm stream?

Any chance you are Jim Cottrell or have worked with him?

Anything's possible. But the answer to both questions is (humbly) no. Read some of his stuff though.

Did you get my e-mail?

Yes. Didn't you get my reply?

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 03-31-2001).]

[ADSN/WFLD]

Enough already, Mongo you need to try out the Vindicator before saying anything else. It is a good nozzle. It can't do everything, but as a general purpose nozzle on an attack line and a foam nozzle the vindicator excels. Go to a demo and you'll see for yourself how useful the vindicator is.

We have had them on the rigs for quite a while now and we consider them the first line off.

[KEA]

Scott:
/I figured I'd just wait until you came back to this area and I'd attend a demo./

I would appreciate that Scott. I'm sorry I failed to call you when I was down there two weeks ago. We did a presentation in Lewisville, TX just north of Dallas. Chief Lasky would be the point of contact.

I know I will be back in Dallas shortly for more training with DFD. I will let you know the dates and your welcome to attend.


/You tell us that the negatives you hear are only from certain competitors or their friends, yet Larry is not a competitor and although he's a friend of Shapiro and Shapiro sells a nozzle, he's posted how to build his yourself on occassions in these forums -/

I have no grief with Paul. We have had some great discussions. I in no way was implying that Paul was one of those spreading negatives. In fact, Paul has posted that the nozzle does in fact do what we say. Now Larry is a whole different subject matter. Everyone knows he is very close freinds with the owners of TFT and his comments have been anything but positive on our product even though he has never had a presentation on it.

/I know it's not a combo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a nutshell isn't it essentially a smooth bore with some aspirating holes and a stream shaper downstream of the nozzle discharge? My point is/was it's more a smooth bore than a fog and to compare apples to apples. I didn't slam or otherwise knock your nozzle, just asked for an apples to apples comparison from someone that claimed your nozzle had a lower reaction than a nozzle that by design should have a higher reaction./

I will have to e-mail you my response so there is no one screaming at me about discusing our product on the forums.


/By the way, have you let Paul test your nozzle?/

As of yet no. We have had numerous e-mails about our upcoming schedule for the West Coast and Paul has been invited to join us on some of those demonstrations. Once the presentation is complete I have no problem with him using the product.

/Ind.FF/EMT we haven't evaluated it, Kirk chose not to let us evaluate his nozzle for business reasons. That's ashamed too, we just spent close to $60,000 on nozzles for 10 new apparatus. Had we evaluated it and found it to be something we could use, we would have bought some./

I was unaware that you were wanting to evaluate for purchase. I was under the impression you wanted it for a nozzle reaction comparison you were doing. My mistake!



/If a Vindicator gets dropped and the end gets knocked out of round, what would that do to the pattern or the nozzles effectiveness?/

I will email you my response.

Mongo
Couldnt agree with you more. Any one who has read my posts know I do my best to stick to physics without the sales pitch.

After sitting through dozens of sales presentations from certain competitors it amazes me how many times they make a statement as if it were fact yet leave out a very big part of the equation.

As an example, So many sales pitches talk about a 100-psi stream moving at a certain speed. Well the speed they talk about is based on 100-psi discharge pressure yet the truth is the nozzle they are trying to sell is not delivering a 100-psi exit pressure. Inlet pressure, yes, but not exit pressure. This was confirmed by Cottrells work on the subject many years ago.

As far as your email. No, I have not yet recieved it.

------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[STATION2]

Hello all, been a while. We've been down this road before haven't we. The original post was about FDNY and the vindicator. I use them in Houston on Engine Co. 68 and in my volunteer department. Kirk came out to Stafford and we did apple to apples comparisons with our TFT's. No contest and we now have 2 on every Engine Co. Our newly arrived Tower will soon have them also. Put one on a 2 1/2" line a let me know what you think. Kirk, E-Mail me about getting them for our Tower please. Scott, I can get you in touch with Captain Reed. We have had some interesting conversations recently about the Colombus and FDNY evaluation. As for him not calling you back, Engine 68 isn't exactly a retirement community with 15-18 runs a day. As for the nozzle I'll sum it up like this. Don't knock it until you try it (and bring a flow meter). Be safe.

Larry

[mongofire_99]

ADSN/WFLD

...you need to try out the Vindicator before saying anything else.

I didn't know there were rules about asking questions or commenting on a generic (to nozzles) evaluation process or fire stream physics. Where are they posted so I can get a copy and not take up anymore of your time?

I wonder if you would be willing to heed your own advice and not say anything else about, or comment on, anything until you try it?

I'm 100% certain your answer is the same as mine. But I've been wrong before...

It is a good nozzle.

Never said or tried to imply it wasn't.

Not once I have I commented on what it can or cannot do or added an opinion about it.

It can't do everything,

No nozzle can.

Go to a demo and you'll see for yourself how useful the vindicator is.

I've asked to be informed of local demos so that I can try to attend one.

KEA

After sitting through dozens of sales presentations from certain competitors it amazes me how many times they make a statement as if it were fact yet leave out a very big part of the equation.

That's why in all things I encourage people to gather all the facts, do their own research and make up their own minds. It is unfortunate that some do not want us to be able to do this and some of us just don't want to, assuming that just because they percieve someone to be smarter than they are they must be right.

[KEA]

Mongo:
/That's why in all things I encourage people to gather all the facts, do their own research and make up their own minds. It is unfortunate that some do not want us to be able to do this and some of us just don't want to, assuming that just because they percieve someone to be smarter than they are they must be right./

DITTO! We are proud of the FACT that we were the first and to my knowledge the ONLY manufacture that REQUIRED any and all reps or distributors to use flowmeters and pressure gauges so that all the facts are laid on the table by equipment not people.

I got your email but I cant keep you posted about being in your area if I dont know where your from or who you are.

Thanks


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-01-2001).]

[mongofire_99]

I got your email but I cant keep you posted about being in your area if I dont know where your from or who you are.

I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex.

And you know, I was just thinking. If Dallas puts it in service, it probably won't be long before we do too.

And (not trying to sound like I'm disgruntled or knocking your product) you won't even have to demo it, the powers that be will just order them and say:

"Here, put the hose on this end, water comes out this end, point the end the water comes out of at the fire and pull this lever. You (pointing to the engineer) make sure there's at least 50psi at this end of the hose - you do the math. But if mongo wants more water, run it up 'til he asks you to stop."

(Now ADSN/WFLD see why I comment and have questions?)

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 04-01-2001).]

[ffnbs]

I'll keep out of the technicals in this one because I'm a pretty non-technical guy. We have two of these nozzles (for 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" hose) and in my opinion they do what they say about gpm's. As for reach, that's another story. These nozzles have their place, I wouldn't screw this nozzle on the hoseline if we needed deep penatration (sp?) into a well involved big box store such as a supermarket. If your department uses class-A foam, because of the design these nozzles seem to do wonders for the finished foam stream with the air aspirating holes.

[LHS*]

KEA, seeing as how you

drag my name into this topic, I'll be happy to report what is going on.

///Your sources are misfinformed.

At last count 10 rigs had one preconnect tipped with a Vindicator. Course I've only all 85 engines with my own eyes. And my info is at barely a week old. Looks like TFT's are 4 to 1 on every engine.

I think if there were ever more actually in use and not sitting in a compartment the letter in the union paper about the nozzle probably killed it. The 10 newest rigs were delivered to the companies after training with the nozzles still in plastic in a compartment.

I've been on numerous multi-alarm structure fires and have yet to see one in use.

As far as th ciy's budget, the FD will buy what ever they want whenever they want it.

Gee Fyredup,

//It just amazes me that anytime anyone mentions the Vindicator nozzle that someone out of either the LHS or Paulie camp have to make the same old tired comments. ??

I didn't say squat about this thing, but seeing as how you think my name needs to be drug in here, I'll say what I know. Firefighters decide what tool to use. Contact houston IAFF and ask for the letter that appeared in their paper. Why are only 10 rigs running one attack line with a Vindicator and 4 with a TFT??? Sounds like a choice to me. I don't care.

//If you don't like the nozzle or don't want to use it fine. But stop trying to twist or end all discussion on it on the forums.

What are you talking about???


KEA

//Everyone knows he is very close freinds with the owners of TFT and his comments have been anything but positive on our product even though he has never had a presentation on it.

Golly I've only used your nozzle 3 to 5 times a day for 3 months with a whole bunch of others. Flows the same as a smothbore tip at similar pressures nd a low pressure fog. I've only bought 150K worth of nozzles in the last 2 months, funny thing, I don't recall buying any TFT's. What is this relationship you are talking about TFT? I think some would say with two other companies they are very good friends with me. If you've got something to say, say it. Why is it the Houston guys who are officers in volunteer departments keep buying Akron turbojets with their own money and not the nozzles on their pumpers at work??? To the tune of 390 nozzles last month?? Are they stupid, or no normal firefighter can figure out what works for himself without having the propaganda minister there???

// the ONLY manufacture that REQUIRED any and all reps or distributors to use flow meters and pressure gauges so that all the facts are laid on the table by equipment not people.

And we all know how accurate flow meters are!



[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-02-2001).]