does any one know if osha nfpa alllow you to interchange bottles in the fire service and does anyone know where i can get the documation on this
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Originally posted by wvfire140 View Postdoes any one know if osha nfpa alllow you to interchange bottles in the fire service and does anyone know where i can get the documation on this
Whatever brand of air packs you are using, you must use the cylinders provided by the manufacturer. And to add. One of the companies who makes cylinders for SCBA's, Structural Composites (SCI) advertises they will sell you cylinders direct for much less then Scott. And they are in fact the very same cylinders Scott sells, minus the Scott logo. But they are not certified for use with any SCBA because they lack the NIOSH Tag that can only be added when the cylinder is sold by the SCBA manufacturer. So beware of that as well.Last edited by WD6956; 04-07-2011, 09:09 PM.
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Originally posted by wvfire140 View Postdoes any one know if osha nfpa alllow you to interchange bottles in the fire service and does anyone know where i can get the documation on this
Tanks have turrets
Air is stored in CYLINDERSSteve Dragon
FFII, Fire Instructor II, Fire Officer I, Fire Appartus Driver Operator Certified
Volunteers are never "off duty".
http://www.bufd7.org
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Originally posted by dragonfyre View PostBabies drink from bottles
Tanks have turrets
Air is stored in CYLINDERSOpinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.
Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.
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Originally posted by WD6956 View PostThey will not. Basically it comes down to NIOSH. NIOSH certifies SCBA's as a complete unit. The certification only applies if you use the cylinders designed for use with that pack.
Whatever brand of air packs you are using, you must use the cylinders provided by the manufacturer. And to add. One of the companies who makes cylinders for SCBA's, Structural Composites (SCI) advertises they will sell you cylinders direct for much less then Scott. And they are in fact the very same cylinders Scott sells, minus the Scott logo. But they are not certified for use with any SCBA because they lack the NIOSH Tag that can only be added when the cylinder is sold by the SCBA manufacturer. So beware of that as well."This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
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The rules state the air bottle/tank/container/big round thing must be of the same manufacturer since they test the SCBA unit as a whole.
Personally - its BIG BS. This is a cash cow for the SCBA manufacturers. If it wasn't a cash cow, why then can the OEM tank manufacturer sell the same tank for 1/2 the price of the manufacturer?
I seriously question whether the 'difference' of that sticker would hold up in actual court proceedings. If the tank is made to the exact same specs (and marked as such by the DOT regs) and it uses a valve from the scba manufacuturer, it would he hard to prove a functional difference. You can't even claim an assembly difference since valves are removed every 5 years for hydro testing. You would even have a hard time proving that the NIOSH test result didn't apply. Remember - MSA/Scott does not do anything to the tank itself when they get it - if they did, it would invalidate the DOT exemption it was made under. They put thier valve on it, test the assembly and send it out. (SCI puts the NIOSH approval sticker on when they affix the DOT info). Its possible SCI puts the valves on (can't say either way).
I would not lose sleep using SCI bottles with MSA valves on MSA packs or SCI bottles with scott valves on Scott packs. For this to be an issue - a lot of VERY bad things would have to happen.
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Originally posted by Bones42 View PostExcept for in emergency situations. And once the emergency is over, correct cylinder needs to be put back on the SCBA.
Originally posted by The nots so new FNG View PostPersonally - its BIG BS. This is a cash cow for the SCBA manufacturers. If it wasn't a cash cow, why then can the OEM tank manufacturer sell the same tank for 1/2 the price of the manufacturer?"Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
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The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
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Originally posted by WD6956 View PostThey will not. Basically it comes down to NIOSH. NIOSH certifies SCBA's as a complete unit. The certification only applies if you use the cylinders designed for use with that pack.
Whatever brand of air packs you are using, you must use the cylinders provided by the manufacturer. And to add. One of the companies who makes cylinders for SCBA's, Structural Composites (SCI) advertises they will sell you cylinders direct for much less then Scott. And they are in fact the very same cylinders Scott sells, minus the Scott logo. But they are not certified for use with any SCBA because they lack the NIOSH Tag that can only be added when the cylinder is sold by the SCBA manufacturer. So beware of that as well.Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)
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Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View PostBest summary so far.
Because they haven't made the investment in testing that the SCBA manufacturers have. And they won't be selling the "same tank" because it is likely to have a generic valve assumbly on it rather than the SCBA manufacturers proprietary specification assembly. (Can you say, "Low bid knock-off?")
As for the testing - the required testing for an Air cylinder is set by the DOT. By standard, SCI does this as required to label the cylinder. The SCBA manufacturer does NOT do this as they would then become the tank manufacturer and required to do the full labeling, documentation etc. The SCBA manufacturer cannot modify in any meaningful way the tank without voiding the DOT certification. Tanks are made to a specific standard approved by the DOT - for composite cylinders, this is a specific exemption standard. This is 'stamped' on the tank as part of the required DOT markings. The manufacturer by law must do this as part of the manufacturing process and part of the original hydrostatic test process.
The only testing you could mean is for the valve (which I stated to use OEM) and for the unit as a whole. There is nothing unique about the physical cylinder. If its the same physical size and made to the same exemption number standard, with an OEM valve, its the same tank - with or without a NIOSH test sticker number on it.
Buying the cylinder direct from SCI without a valve would not concern me in the least - especially since I can read the DOT marking on the MSA cylinders which indicate the tanks are made by SCI to the same exact exemption standard. Literally, the only difference is a sticker on the tank. (valves not included - those are a different subject)
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Originally posted by The nots so new FNG View PostYou did read what I said about using OEM valves right...
Seriously? And when an accident happens, as they always do, and the department is found in violation of fundamental OSHA regulation and open to expensive civil litigation for ndangering its members, will it be worth it? Will it be worth it to the individual who knowingly assembled the non-compliant unit for an illegal use? I don't think so.
The SCBA manufacturer does NOT do this as they would then become the tank manufacturer and required to do the full labeling, documentation etc.
Buying the cylinder direct from SCI without a valve would not concern me in the least
If you feels so strongly about this then, by all means, lobby to change the way NIOSH certifies compliance. But, until they change, it's foolish and irresponsible to suggest using generic cylinders for SCBA."Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
sigpic
The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
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