Water supply estimates for rural suppression

[engineeremtp]

Do flush your pumps with clean water after doing this?

Not really necessary. Just expect a little foam to come out of the lines in subsequent use. Class A foam is basically a concentrated detergent, won't harm anything.

[tree68]

Not really necessary. Just expect a little foam to come out of the lines in subsequent use. Class A foam is basically a concentrated detergent, won't harm anything.

See, now, I've always gotten the impression that foam (detergent) in the pump is a bad thing, which is why we usually introduce it into the fire stream after the pump. Detergents and lubricants don't usually do well together.

[rm1524]

See, now, I've always gotten the impression that foam (detergent) in the pump is a bad thing, which is why we usually introduce it into the fire stream after the pump. Detergents and lubricants don't usually do well together.

That was my thought as well.

[DeputyMarshal]

hey dep, isn't formula # 2 the total gallons to use on indirect attacks?

I honestly don't recall seeing it used that way but I won't say it's never been done. I've generally used the Area/3 formula for quick and dirty estimates and the more detailed ISO formulas for more detailed estimates.

[L-Webb]

I need some help.

I am looking for some rough guidelines to estimate the amount of water required to suppress structure fires in rural areas. I am the training officer for a department serving a community with zero (0) hydrants. Our suppression activity is supported by water shuttle using our apparatus and through mutual aid. I am looking for some rough guidelines on the amount of water we need for different types of occupancies. I found the calculus equations in technical papers but that really does not help us. I want to offer training to our members on how to establish a sufficient supply of water. How do we know we have enough tankers coming? How many drop tanks do we need? Many of our refill sites are 10-15+ mintues away, one-way. I want to make sure we have a sufficient supply of water on hand in order to ensure the safety of our fire fighters and the effectiveness of our fire ground operations.

I would like to keep this simple. I remember from my FF1 or 2 class the instructor talking about making rough estimates based on the type of occupancy (single family, 1500 sq ft = roughly xxxxx gallons). But we never covered that information in class.


Thanks for your help.

Jon

How many tankers and engines do you have and how many gallons do they carry? Also do you have a draft truck?

[7Stones]

We have two stations with 2 tankers (3,000 and 2,000, both with a/b foam), 2 pumper tankers (2,000 each) and a brush truck (250g). So for our structural fire response we are running 9,000 gallons out the door. We have three top priority mutual aid departments with tankers 2,000+. There is also a CAFS pumper 15 miles away that we will call.

We are a fully volunteer department with 25 members. We usually get 14-16 to respond during a structure fire depending on the day and time. Our coverage area is very remote so it could take us 8-15 minutes from dispatch to get on scene.

Based on some of the calculations given here, I am putting together a simple 3x5 card to place in each of our first-due apparatus (depending on the fire location). This size-up tool will help our members make a quick determination on the amount of water we need in support of our effort and will list our mutual aid options including their anticipated response time. That way we have make some educated decisions when we arrive about how many tankers to request.

I do not want to make this too difficult. The idea is to make it a quick reference so guys who are not used to making mutual aid decisions can feel comfortable calling in support. I like the idea of the "+1" option for tankers to cover any unforeseen problems with our water shuttle situation. That means for 1500 sqft houses 25% and less involved on arrival we will probably call in one tanker in addition to our units. Houses 50% we will request 2 + CAFS, and fully involved structures we will request all three and our CAFS support. There are still too many variables to make this an exact science (type of construction, construction materials/fuel loading, distance and access to water refill [we get 200+ inches of snow], etc. But I think this will work. I will pre-calcuate the GPM and water need for 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000 sqft structures. We do not have any homes in our area above 3000 sqft. If we run to larger houses which are 50%+ involved we will call additional mutual aid help from our second priority departments early on since their response time will be longer due to distance.

Thank you for all this input. You all have been tremendously helpful.

Jon

[tree68]

Why make the guys in the trucks sort it out? Set some parameters - room and contents, bigger, biggest, and preplan what you'll need. Then label the cards "second alarm" and "third alarm" and give the cards to dispatch.

If you break your first due down by sectors the dispatchers won't be looking for the card for "123 Elm Road," only for the sector Elm Road is in.

When you first due apparatus pulls in and decides more resources are needed, he/she simply asks for a second alarm. Same thing if your own department happens to come up short for whatever reason.

Post the extra alarm info in the trucks and with the officers so they can review what's coming.

Get your neighbors to do the same thing and you've got the beginning of a MABAS going.

[L-Webb]

We have two stations with 2 tankers (3,000 and 2,000, both with a/b foam), 2 pumper tankers (2,000 each) and a brush truck (250g). So for our structural fire response we are running 9,000 gallons out the door. We have three top priority mutual aid departments with tankers 2,000+. There is also a CAFS pumper 15 miles away that we will call.

We are a fully volunteer department with 25 members. We usually get 14-16 to respond during a structure fire depending on the day and time. Our coverage area is very remote so it could take us 8-15 minutes from dispatch to get on scene.

Based on some of the calculations given here, I am putting together a simple 3x5 card to place in each of our first-due apparatus (depending on the fire location). This size-up tool will help our members make a quick determination on the amount of water we need in support of our effort and will list our mutual aid options including their anticipated response time. That way we have make some educated decisions when we arrive about how many tankers to request.

I do not want to make this too difficult. The idea is to make it a quick reference so guys who are not used to making mutual aid decisions can feel comfortable calling in support. I like the idea of the "+1" option for tankers to cover any unforeseen problems with our water shuttle situation. That means for 1500 sqft houses 25% and less involved on arrival we will probably call in one tanker in addition to our units. Houses 50% we will request 2 + CAFS, and fully involved structures we will request all three and our CAFS support. There are still too many variables to make this an exact science (type of construction, construction materials/fuel loading, distance and access to water refill [we get 200+ inches of snow], etc. But I think this will work. I will pre-calcuate the GPM and water need for 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000 sqft structures. We do not have any homes in our area above 3000 sqft. If we run to larger houses which are 50%+ involved we will call additional mutual aid help from our second priority departments early on since their response time will be longer due to distance.

Thank you for all this input. You all have been tremendously helpful.

Jon

Sounds like a good starting point. You should really look into getting a draft truck. We have one and it can really help water supply issues.
It is a 1 ton 4X4 chevy truck with a 1000 gpm pump mounted in the bed. It has 4 3 inch discharges to fill tenders with.

Good luck

[kuh shise]

The formulas that have been tossed around are from tests performed at Iowa State in the 1960's and are still fairly valid, except for the increased fuel loading caused by the increased use of plastics in furniture. Second number comes from "Hazard classification number" of NFPA. This is an estimator for the total gallons needed for supression. If you scan this you will see that lumber mills have a larger requirement than noncombustable construction, etc. No one on here has mentioned exposures... so for every exposure within 50 feet of the involved building add 1/2 the gpm required by the original fire. The 500 gpm SFD cited would require another 250 for a nearby garage or barn. Incidentally the original Iowa formula was designed to achieve extinguishment in 30 seconds. That is the flow directly applied to the fire, and not wasted running down the outside of the building.

[Pelican631]

Jon,

I put together a couple of tanker shuttle calculators to illustrate the impact of getting tankers on the road sooner rather than later (auto aid instead of mutual aid). The first one is the original one I put together and the second one has a few modifications tailored to the ISO 2 hour water delivery test. These aren't tools you'd use on a fireground, but are useful for pre-planning and illustrating why you need to call for help early.

The tools will output a graph showing how much water you have available on scene throughout the first two hours of an incident. Of course it's all based on "theoretical" numbers and assumes everything goes smoothly, but it's a starting point. The two calculators are the bottom two links here:

https://sites.google.com/site/radioetcetera/firecalculators

Your friend in IL,

Andy

[LVFD301]

Andy - I am a bit dense. Can you explain this for me?

Response Time (use .65 + 1.7D)
(min)

Type slow - easier for me to follow.

Thanks for all that software, two tone detect is a lifesaver.

[Pelican631]

Andy - I am a bit dense. Can you explain this for me?

Response Time (use .65 + 1.7D)
(min)

Type slow - easier for me to follow.

Thanks for all that software, two tone detect is a lifesaver.

That's just the formula ISO uses to calculate tanker travel time. Travel time in minutes = .65 + 1.7*D where D is the distance in miles. If I remember correctly, I think they assume an average speed of 35 mph.

Andy

[LVFD301]

Thanks! ten characters...

[hwoods]

And.........

Part of your approach to this problem has to be addressed thru your Dispatch system. Do you have a County Wide 911 phone system and a County wide Fire Dispatch Center?? That's the norm here, in fact, it's the Law that Each County must have a County Wide Dispatch Center, etc. Dispatch Run Cards used in the Mid Atlantic have "Tanker Task Force" Assignments for the Rural areas. We also use "Automatic" aid, where pre determined mutual aid stations are dispatched on the initial call. This move speeds up the process greatly, resulting in more water arriving quicker than it would if you waited to see the extent of the Fire before calling for help. In my general area, a Structure Alarm gets 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, a Heavy Rescue, and a few Chiefs, etc. If the address dispatched is in an area without Hydrants, at least 2 Tankers are added. If more Water is needed a Tanker Task Force can be requested which brings 3 more Tankers and an Additional Engine to support the Tankers. Additional Task Forces mirror the first one........ We usually set up more than one Portable (Folding) Tank, and a Chief is usually designated as the Water Supply Officer. Quite often, Water Supply operates on a separate Radio Channel from the Fireground Operations...........

A Tip of the Leather to you for trying to be proactive and get ahead of the curve. Good Luck.......

[Seagravesstick]

ISO Slayer

I need some help.

I am looking for some rough guidelines to estimate the amount of water required to suppress structure fires in rural areas. I am the training officer for a department serving a community with zero (0) hydrants. Our suppression activity is supported by water shuttle using our apparatus and through mutual aid. I am looking for some rough guidelines on the amount of water we need for different types of occupancies. I found the calculus equations in technical papers but that really does not help us. I want to offer training to our members on how to establish a sufficient supply of water. How do we know we have enough tankers coming? How many drop tanks do we need? Many of our refill sites are 10-15+ mintues away, one-way. I want to make sure we have a sufficient supply of water on hand in order to ensure the safety of our fire fighters and the effectiveness of our fire ground operations.

I would like to keep this simple. I remember from my FF1 or 2 class the instructor talking about making rough estimates based on the type of occupancy (single family, 1500 sq ft = roughly xxxxx gallons). But we never covered that information in class.


Thanks for your help.

Jon

If you would like you can go to our web site at www.isoslayer.com and download our free book "Your next ISO Rating" we have some excellent information on fire flow and water shuttle. you can also contact me at [email protected] and I will send you a very simple formula for determining NFF that is easy to understand, use and is very accurate.
David