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  • Stepping Off Ladders

    Need some opinions here.

    Myself and another FD instructor got into a debate (professional at this time : > ) about the correct protocol for stepping off of an extension ladder placed to the roof of a structure, either onto a roof ladder or onto a flat roof.

    The contention is whether you must step off of a rung that is below the roof line or you can step off of one at the roof line or the very first one above.

    The IFSTA essentials 5th edition is sort of vague, it only says that ladders placed for roof work should be extended well above the roof line to provide both foot and hand holds for access to and egress from the roof.

    My personal position and interpretation of the statement is that stepping off from the roof line or the first rung above is indeed safer as it requires less of a stretch and also allows you to use less downward force on the roof structure to pull yourself up. Obviously making it much easier to recover if the roof should fail. Yes, I am aware people should always sound roofs. I know that the concern held by many is that you are past the pivot point, and I agree you should never step onto the overhanging part of a roof ladder, but the mechanical force required to pivot a just off vertical extension ladder which is being footed or is tied off is immense and far exceeds the weight of any firefighter i've ever seen.

    I have seen the video of the ladder move from the guy stepping onto a low flat roof, but that was a failure to properly heel the ladder and would have happened no matter what rung he stepped from.

    Anyway, opinions please.

    Thanks

  • #2
    I think you guys need a hobby if this was actually a topic of conversation.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by johnny46 View Post
      I think you guys need a hobby if this was actually a topic of conversation.
      Agreed. So many other things that actually MATTER to talk about.
      Career Firefighter
      Volunteer Captain

      -Professional in Either Role-

      Originally posted by Rescue101
      I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by johnny46 View Post
        I think you guys need a hobby if this was actually a topic of conversation.
        Yup yup yup
        "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

        Comment


        • #5
          Indeed. Let's limit these threads to serious discussions only please.

          On that note, which is better - mayo or miracle whip?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 105 View Post
            On that note, which is better - mayo or miracle whip?
            Leather, smooth bore, east coast, red.
            "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fawlty View Post
              Need some opinions here.

              Myself and another FD instructor got into a debate (professional at this time : > ) about the correct protocol for stepping off of an extension ladder placed to the roof of a structure, either onto a roof ladder or onto a flat roof.

              The contention is whether you must step off of a rung that is below the roof line or you can step off of one at the roof line or the very first one above.

              The IFSTA essentials 5th edition is sort of vague, it only says that ladders placed for roof work should be extended well above the roof line to provide both foot and hand holds for access to and egress from the roof.

              My personal position and interpretation of the statement is that stepping off from the roof line or the first rung above is indeed safer as it requires less of a stretch and also allows you to use less downward force on the roof structure to pull yourself up. Obviously making it much easier to recover if the roof should fail. Yes, I am aware people should always sound roofs. I know that the concern held by many is that you are past the pivot point, and I agree you should never step onto the overhanging part of a roof ladder, but the mechanical force required to pivot a just off vertical extension ladder which is being footed or is tied off is immense and far exceeds the weight of any firefighter i've ever seen.

              I have seen the video of the ladder move from the guy stepping onto a low flat roof, but that was a failure to properly heel the ladder and would have happened no matter what rung he stepped from.

              Anyway, opinions please.

              Thanks
              LLLLOOOOLLLL.....

              Oh my god Sir, you didn't actually expect a serious answer did you?? From this board? OHHHHHH please....not gonna happen. It's so much easier to ridicule your pathetic life for discussing something that I don't approve as vital. Please, everyone join me in the RIDICULE of this man for thinking he could come to a board of BROTHERS and ask an opinion question. BWWAAAHAAAHAAA.

              I've spent two days already this week at FDIC, where if you don't remember what its like to be around brothers, there will remind you quickly. Ask Cpt. Dugan of the FDNY and see if he thinks its a dumb question. IT'S F*CKING NOT.

              Now, I would agree with you...escpecially in my area with plenty of parapet walls. I don't prefer to start off at a disadvantage and not having my foot that I am landing on fully planted prior to completely shifting my weight. Thats just for me though.
              "It's a living thing brian..."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by truckedup133 View Post
                LLLLOOOOLLLL.....

                Oh my god Sir, you didn't actually expect a serious answer did you?? From this board? OHHHHHH please....not gonna happen. It's so much easier to ridicule your pathetic life for discussing something that I don't approve as vital. Please, everyone join me in the RIDICULE of this man for thinking he could come to a board of BROTHERS and ask an opinion question. BWWAAAHAAAHAAA.

                I've spent two days already this week at FDIC, where if you don't remember what its like to be around brothers, there will remind you quickly. Ask Cpt. Dugan of the FDNY and see if he thinks its a dumb question. IT'S F*CKING NOT.

                Now, I would agree with you...escpecially in my area with plenty of parapet walls. I don't prefer to start off at a disadvantage and not having my foot that I am landing on fully planted prior to completely shifting my weight. Thats just for me though.
                LOOOOOOOOL no just kidding, i didnt laugh, tl;dr
                ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by truckedup133 View Post
                  Ask Cpt. Dugan of the FDNY and see if he thinks its a dumb question. IT'S F*CKING NOT.
                  If you are a fire instructor, as this guy claims to be, it is a dumb question.

                  Context is everything. Two fire instructors standing around talking about this **** indicates nobody willing to raise a ladder and try it out. So not only are they dumb, but they're lazy.

                  I accept your surrender.
                  Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    at least it isn't another thread about leather helmets

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey!!! Fletch is on retroplex right now!!!
                      IAFF

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This sounds like one of those "deep" discussions that comes up after a case of beer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johnny46 View Post
                          If you are a fire instructor, as this guy claims to be, it is a dumb question.

                          Context is everything. Two fire instructors standing around talking about this **** indicates nobody willing to raise a ladder and try it out. So not only are they dumb, but they're lazy.

                          I accept your surrender.
                          Why would they raise a ladder and try it again? They both listed their preference, which would tend towards me thinking THAT THIS IS HOW THEY CHOOSE TO DO IT IN THE FIELD. All this would accomplish is arguing outside as opposed to in. All he was asking for was a consensus. Opinions. That is all....And he couldnt even get that. Surely, we all agree that what is right for me might not be right for you and likewise, the other way around. Perhaps they just wanted the data....just to see for their own amusement. Wtf.

                          It's fitting I took a class today called firehouse excellence. In it, among a series of ways to be the fireman and person you should want to be, they discussed how we treat our brothers. I don't know the man who asked this question. So, instead of insinuating he is a "wannabe instructor", or lazy or dumb....I just answered his question. Gave him the respect to answer a question without ridicule. A courtesy that has been offered to me all week so far at FDIC.

                          What I should not have done was made such a mockery of this board and been so cynical. If I was true to what stuff I studied today I would not have done that. But sometimes it is unbearable to read a board that I used to enjoy that has been reduced to a collection of the guys just like those who I consistently try to ignore within my own department. ( I should say that its not all of you )

                          Just the other day I asked a simple question and got just as sh*tty a return as this guy. And its just pointless to be like that. So go ahead and call me thin-skinned....Everyone's all time arguement.

                          If I had to keep telling people they are too thin skinned, I might, eventually begin to think...."hey, maybe I'm the assh0le." There is a difference in firehouse joking and razzing and not giving two sh1ts enough about somebody to help them out. And frankly I would say this board is toeing that line.

                          If just answering this simple question helped this bro out well then cool, glad I helped. If he is just lazy, dumb and a wannabe well then what am I really out by typing 12 words? Nothing. And maybe because of my answer he went out and threw a ladder and decided for himself what he liked. If that happened well thats one good thing I did for a fellow firefighter. And perhaps they are just sitting and laughing at all the crap they stirred, and if so...no biggie. I still did for him what I would have wanted if I had been asking. So I am good with it.

                          Accept my surrender?

                          You can keep your acceptance sir.
                          "It's a living thing brian..."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by truckedup133 View Post
                            Why would they raise a ladder and try it again? They both listed their preference, which would tend towards me thinking THAT THIS IS HOW THEY CHOOSE TO DO IT IN THE FIELD. All this would accomplish is arguing outside as opposed to in. All he was asking for was a consensus. Opinions. That is all....And he couldnt even get that. Surely, we all agree that what is right for me might not be right for you and likewise, the other way around. Perhaps they just wanted the data....just to see for their own amusement. Wtf.

                            It's fitting I took a class today called firehouse excellence. In it, among a series of ways to be the fireman and person you should want to be, they discussed how we treat our brothers. I don't know the man who asked this question. So, instead of insinuating he is a "wannabe instructor", or lazy or dumb....I just answered his question. Gave him the respect to answer a question without ridicule. A courtesy that has been offered to me all week so far at FDIC.

                            What I should not have done was made such a mockery of this board and been so cynical. If I was true to what stuff I studied today I would not have done that. But sometimes it is unbearable to read a board that I used to enjoy that has been reduced to a collection of the guys just like those who I consistently try to ignore within my own department. ( I should say that its not all of you )

                            Just the other day I asked a simple question and got just as sh*tty a return as this guy. And its just pointless to be like that. So go ahead and call me thin-skinned....Everyone's all time arguement.

                            If I had to keep telling people they are too thin skinned, I might, eventually begin to think...."hey, maybe I'm the assh0le." There is a difference in firehouse joking and razzing and not giving two sh1ts enough about somebody to help them out. And frankly I would say this board is toeing that line.

                            If just answering this simple question helped this bro out well then cool, glad I helped. If he is just lazy, dumb and a wannabe well then what am I really out by typing 12 words? Nothing. And maybe because of my answer he went out and threw a ladder and decided for himself what he liked. If that happened well thats one good thing I did for a fellow firefighter. And perhaps they are just sitting and laughing at all the crap they stirred, and if so...no biggie. I still did for him what I would have wanted if I had been asking. So I am good with it.

                            Accept my surrender?

                            You can keep your acceptance sir.
                            Good Lord what are they putting in the water in Indy...
                            Career Firefighter
                            Volunteer Captain

                            -Professional in Either Role-

                            Originally posted by Rescue101
                            I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              There is one key point that this topic should bring to the table.....

                              The correct way to do several things, in this case stepping off a ladder, is any manner in which you are comfortable and can do it without busting your a s s - espacially if there are cameras around.

                              End of discussion. Seriously. No one else needs to waste their time or bandwidth answering.
                              RK
                              cell #901-494-9437

                              Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                              "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                              Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

                              Comment

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